From the WNIN Public Media Center in Downtown Evansville.

I'm David James, and this is ‘Two Main Street’.

And, yes, court is in session with Indiana Chief Justice Loretta Rush.

Justice Rush is the 2024 speaker of the Evansville Bar Association Shepherd, a lecture series.

She's Indiana's first female chief justice, a position she's held for ten years.

And before joining the state's highest court, Justice Rush was an attorney for a Lafayette, Indiana, law firm and a juvenile court judge for 13 years.

Loretta Hogan Rush was appointed to the Indiana Supreme Court by Governor Mitch Daniels, and took the oath of office as the state's 108th Supreme Court Justice in November of 2012.

She's a Pennsylvania native and a graduate of Purdue and the Indiana University School of Law.

So, Chief Justice Loretta Rush, welcome to Main Street.

Good.

Thank you.

David, how was your, session at the Law Academy?

It was wonderful.

I it's my second time to go there.

We brought the whole court down and had an oral argument at University of Southern Indiana, and I went over there.

I tried to stop by schools when I travel to a city, so students were great.

I was really pleased with how many of them want to be lawyers or judges.

Well, that's one of your push is in it to get more attorneys in Indiana.

Yes, it is.

So what's your what's your pitch?

It's a great job.

It is.

I've been a judge and a lawyer for 42 years, and it's a profession where you can really make a difference in people's lives.

You can help people, and it's so important to kind of living in a free society that we have a strong rule of law, strong judiciary, and that we resolve disputes in lieu of chaos.

Well, and argumentative.

Are you?

We were argumentative person when you'd like to do not, not particularly.

I was always I mean I was a big reader.

But I liked advocating for my clients.

Okay, there you go.

And I enjoy advocating for the judiciary.

Now, as chief justice, what's a better way of putting it than argumentative?

Yeah.

Okay.

Very well, very well done.

A lot of important topics to talk about, and probably none more important right now than the public's trust and confidence in our legal system.

Would you agree?

Yes.

Let me explain.

Yes, I agree, I mean, I it's just something I think about and I work on daily.

Yeah, I just went to Arsenal High School last year or last week for Constitution Day, and I met with the students.

How many of you trust the judiciary?

I didn't see a lot of hands go up.

Yeah, and that's problematic when we live in a society that is based on the rule of law.

And I've had the opportunity, I was a president of a conference of chief justices to travel the world, and I've seen judicial systems that they didn't have trust where they have to set up anti-corruption courts, where it takes ten years to get a case resolved.

And it's problematic for their government is problematic for living in a free democracy.

So the trust in the courts, you know, you have in Indiana of over a million cases filed a year, there's two parties to every case.

So you look at public institutions, no institution used more than the courts, maybe the BNP, I don't know.

So people need to think that they're going to get fair, impartial, judges that are quickly and efficiently decide their cases.

So they can move on.

You know, when people come to court, often it could be the worst day of their lives.

And to have a strong judiciary is key.

And to have people trust when they stand in that courtroom, as so many Hoosiers have to, that they're going to get a good, fair decision and be able to move on with their lives is key.

So what's the problem right now?

I think it's not just the judiciary.

I think it's in public institutions.

I think the lack of civil discourse has been problematic.

You know, in applying the rule of law, you may not like the decision, but the judge has a rule under separation of powers.

The judges judges have to apply the law as written.

And then there's some gray areas that we have to develop the law.

And make that.

So I think that the sort of shouting and anger and name calling has is problematic.

I have judges are telling me now that they're being disrespected tremendously in court.

You would never want to flip off a judge ruling.

But they're seeing that because they're not respecting the authority that comes behind it.

But I also think that authority has to be earned.

You have to have a system where you will efficiently, fairly and inexpensively get cases decided so people can get back on their lives.

So it's a it's a two edge.

We have to work hard to get that trust.

And then we have to do things like me talking with you today.

I do a lot of interviews, a lot of our judges.

We have cameras in the courtroom now.

We've got a court system that you can in, my case, Indiana.

You can get online now and see and see almost every case in Indiana.

So I think the transparency, is key so people can see how hard working, our judiciary is.

I know you also encourage judges to get out in the community very much so, I think that where are the courthouse is they're in the center of every community.

And we I call us through the government emergency rooms for some of society's biggest issues.

I mean, substance abuse, mental health violence and the cases that we see.

So it's important that you work with in your larger community, the the primary referral source for people to get treatment is the criminal justice system.

I mean, you don't think about that judiciary.

So you think about 70% of people in jails have a substance abuse mental health or co-occurring.

What are the how do we train our judges?

What are the services at work?

So we don't have this revolving door of people in and out of, the criminal justice system.

And it's it's an issue with public safety.

So you've got to balance that out.

But our judges have been wonderful.

Your judges, you have fantastic judges.

In Evansville, you've got some, some of the state's best judicial leaders down here.

Look at their what they're doing.

I was just, there's veterans court.

There's a veterans court today.

I was just talking to Judge Shively about his problem solving.

Courts are passionate about doing better.

We also have family recovery courts.

When can a family?

When they get together?

If they get the children back with the family safe, we as a parents, going through recovery in, substance abuse.

And if they can't, you know, make sure that you make timely plans for that child so child doesn't languish in foster care.

Now, you've been very outspoken about Indiana's attorney shortage.

There's an Indiana Supreme Court commission to encourage lawmakers to help fund legal start ups and scholarship programs.

For attorneys in underserved areas.

How's that going?

Well, it's just started.

We've got a first group of recommendations.

And think about it.

A lot of people say, do we really need not think about the lawyer jokes?

Right.

Do a really need more lawyers?

But think about you're in a rural community and you cannot afford an attorney and you're charged with a crime in the Constitution says you have a right to representation.

That's a problem.

So when we don't have prosecutors in counties, when we don't have public defenders, when we don't have even judges, with regard to areas of the state that the attorney is sort of aged, you know, we've lost our attorneys.

And what is going to happen.

So we're really pushing at we're looking at lots of different options, for that.

But but it really is when you look at what your constitutional rights are, you constitutional right to be represented in these situations?

And who wants to stand looking at recharge with something and not be able to have somebody represent them in court?

It's it's it is a, not what sort of the foundational, underpinnings of our Constitution says with regard to that.

So we kind of issued a challenge to lawmakers, didn't you?

Yeah.

Come up with some funding for these.

Come up and we'll work.

We'll work on funding too.

So what do you do?

Let's say you want to go through you go through law school and you want to become a public defender, but you've got $130,000 worth of debt.

And that job pays $50,000 a year.

We're losing that.

We lost Valparaiso Law School, which was a wonderful.

Yes.

I'd love to have a law school down here in Evansville.

Anyone else?

There's listening.

I mean, you've got USC, University of Evansville.

You've just got a great center.

I love your med school down here, but we have to have, affordable legal education where we can have people go into these public servant sort of roles.

The attorney general's office and public defenders, they have openings, just dozens of openings which really tax the system, that we have with regard to representation.

And that's on top of civil legal aid.

You think about a grandmother, you think about the drug crisis we have.

And grandparents want to get legal custody of their grandkids.

They can get them registered in school because parents are suffering from any of a number of of substance abuse, mental health or both.

And they can't afford an attorney.

And how do they get the paperwork to go?

So it's necessary.

You mentioned, drug abuse.

I know you're on this opioid task force, and we do have some good news, though, about, that just recently came out that between April of 2023 and April of 2024, overdose deaths declined 10% nationwide.

That's the largest decrease on record.

Yes, that was big news.

That was big news.

We have a lot.

We've lost so many, to overdose.

I used to carry Narcan in my car because I would see somebody overdosing on the street.

Really?

Yes, I did.

I mean, it's just we had people overdose in courtrooms, in particular with the fentanyl.

Fentanyl right now is a just a killer.

So, yes, the overdose deaths, are really when I was chairing the National Opioid Task Force at that point in the country, there have been about 550,000, overdose deaths.

And and it's not just the person that overdoses.

It's the kids.

It's the families.

It's the oldest.

Yes.

And then it's the generational issue where, you see, you want to break that generational cycle of substance abuse.

Now, we talked about the shortage of attorneys.

Indiana's 92 counties have either have fewer lawyers per capita than the national average.

And especially in these rural areas, any counties that are really hurting right now, we actually have it.

And I think it's up on our website, too.

I think we've got we've got some counties that they're really hurting.

We're as a state, I think we're in the bottom 10% of the country for attorneys per capita.

And there's some that are like, you know, have one tenth of that, what's required.

So we can we can follow that.

And we should have a heat map and, and show.

And I always, I always encourage people going from the law school.

Do you want to be a judge someday?

You want to be a prosecutor?

Look at these beautiful smoke.

You know, we are a state of rural communities, you know, and I love traveling the rural communities and meeting with the judges.

Those judges, you want to know their community.

Those judges know their communities.

They do now, artificial intelligence can help fill the void in legal representation.

You know, we have to stay ahead of AI.

There's definitely things I can do.

But it doesn't it can't do everything on that.

But I think let me there's two parts of technology, one remote representation using technology.

So maybe somebody can have an attorney that's a in a dense, more densely populated area in a rural community, things like interpreters using that.

We are looking at AI with regard to transcription.

We have a mental health project where if we have probably 19,000 involuntary mental health hearings in Indiana a year, that's increased.

And our judges are saying the, the mental there's hardly a docket that doesn't have a mental health issue that comes before us.

So how do we get those cases moving?

Because you're only if you're involved, if you're involuntarily committed, you have it's for 90 days, but then you really don't have a right to appeal because it can't come.

So we're we're transcribing using AI to do transcriptions.

I think we need to, responsibly use AI.

It's not the panacea for figuring out how we're going to get out of the attorney crisis, but how do we leverage the good parts of AI?

As judges, we have to train our judges, maybe have a piece of evidence of somebody saying X, Y, and Z, but it's not.

It's doctored.

It's an AI.

Description.

So is this research done by AI?

Is this correct, or is this just sort of garbage in, garbage out?

So we have to it's one of the many things that we are constitutionally charged with, the administration of justice in the state that we've got to research keep ahead of.

And I have an innovation committee.

And there's a judge from, Evansville, I can't remember which judges right now that is on that, that are working on these issues to get to bring recommendations to the court.

Is this part of your core technology push?

Yes.

Okay.

Another, important topic, one you're passionate about is the safety of court officials, the threats of violence, they're real.

So have you ever been threatened?

Yes, many times.

Monthly or more.

Have you ever been harmed?

Yes.

Can you tell me about that?

Well, Yes.

I was a victim of a violent crime, a home invasion.

My husband and I were both injured.

It was a litigant who had come back later.

Yeah.

It was.

Was this in Tippecanoe County?

Yes.

Okay.

Yeah, it was right at the when I started, right after I was elected judge.

Well, okay.

So how can we, better protect our court officials?

Well, I think people should be aware of the fact of sort of the cloud or the threat that these judges are under and make these tough decisions.

As you're looking at public trust and confidence, these judges are signing on to a lot.

And I think there's a fiscal ask, on that with regard to the legislature and with state.

You know, I think one of my budget request this year is to have the state help with funding for county judges, because the way our we're not a unified court system.

So everything doesn't come from Indianapolis.

Evans, Vanderburgh County pays for everything for the judges, but for the judges salary, they pay all the staff, the probation officers, security building.

So I'm asking if, you know, counties are tapped out.

I mean, there's really fiscal, you know, things.

So I'm asking that the state help fund that because I really want judges to make decisions.

You know, it's the old saying without fear or favor, I want judges to be able to make decisions without fear.

And having been harmed, myself and having just a number of threats, I, you know, I thought it was a lot when I was the trial court judge, but it's a whole lot more now as chief justice.

And you travel with security.

No, I do I did not for the first maybe ten years, on the court, maybe nine years.

But now I have security most of the time.

Just for work and work.

Okay.

Now, you say that 98% of all cases are resolved in state courts, so they are loaded.

You call them emergency rooms for society's ills, homelessness, domestic violence, substance abuse, mental illness, and the list goes on.

Right.

So these judges have a lot on their plate.

They have a lot on their plate.

And again, I mean, you think about what people coming to court I talked about involuntary mental health.

We have over a million protective orders now in our protective order registry.

We have evictions.

We have, the drug courts, the drug crimes, the violence crimes.

I mean, there's really not a day on the Supreme.

I had this as a trial court judge.

I there's a sort of a molest or murder case that I'm looking at every single day in the Indiana, Supreme Court.

So it is.

I mean, it's something to, consider.

So, like, be nice to your judges.

People here in, Vanderburgh County, you've got some great ones.

And they they put a lot on the line, and they know that they're putting a lot on the line.

But there is that higher purpose that, you know, what does justice look like in Indiana?

And having that educated, safe judge who cares, you know, has a ton of compassion for their communities on those benches is just so important.

Let's learn more about my guest.

Where did you grow up?

I moved every year, 60 times here in the South Side of Chicago.

My dad worked for the railroad and then the railroad.

It was Erie.

Lackawanna ended.

And then he worked for Wayne Works in Richmond, Indiana.

He was a solid school.

Busses.

Now, how did you end up in Indiana, then?

So the bus job this.

Well, yes.

I lived up in Lake County when I worked for the railroad.

I lived in Munster, for a period of time, but it was really following, like, every sort of blue collar train town from Hoboken to the south side of Chicago.

We lived in, like Marion, Ohio.

Youngstown, Ohio, Cleveland, Ohio, Elmira, New York.

And then when that job ended, he got a job and which I'm very happy because I'm a I love Indiana great schools went to Purdue, love Purdue and, went to law school.

And I you love I you I love the story about, Richmond, Indiana, the school bus job that you had.

This is a dream job.

For what?

We were a teenager then.

Teenager.

What did you do?

We always worked.

I mean, I started working when I was 14 at Earlham College in the cafeteria, but my dad sold school busses so I could make money.

And I put myself through college and law school.

I was work study as well by, driving school busses on weekends.

I could drive a bus from Wayne, Works in Richmond to New York, or remained fly back and really make I could make I remember was like hundreds of dollars at that time.

So these are brand new school bus.

These are new schools, corporations bought.

Yeah.

And you transport I would I would an in flight and then fly back.

I would eat Twizzlers which I love and listen to Broadway show tunes and that kept me going.

I would say it is a dream job.

Definitely.

I understand that, you like to hike?

Yes, I like to hike and bike.

I like I find great peace outdoors in nature.

So if on weekends I bike, every weekend I try to hike.

What's been your favorite hiking trail?

Do you know, I just went back, right.

Judicial Conference of Chief Justice justices in Oregon.

And there's a it was called Silver Trails and it was Oregon.

It was eight miles and it was ten waterfalls and was just beautiful.

Oh my gosh, I've got, I've got I had a good fall on one.

So I got some scars on my knee right now.

But I like anything where I'm just out.

It's sort of you work very hard.

You're in buildings working on these issues.

Just.

I find a real spirituality from being outside in nature.

Well, I looked at the Indiana's top hiking trails, Turkey run done all those.

And the dunes, all of them.

And, Cliff falls, 15,050 falls.

We live near Provincetown.

I miss my kids every year.

Give me a season pass to the, That's my Christmas gift to the state parks.

Okay, well that's great.

That's great.

Okay.

We were talking earlier.

There's no one else in your family took.

You took the career path of being a lawyer?

No, not.

There weren't a lot there.

College was a big deal for me in my family.

So, no, there were no lawyers.

And there's nobody that went on.

If the some that went to college did not go on after college.

So why did you want to go into law?

Who was the last one?

You know, I took a constitutional law class, in it, that sort of look, I was I was going to be a I went to Purdue.

I thought I was going to be an engineer.

And we just we were not.

It was just not a married man.

Heaven.

But I did marry an engineer and a mechanical engineer.

I've been married a long time, so I, but I always loved I love logic, I love history, I like philosophy, I like taking, taking messy situations and applying order to them.

And so I went to the last minute decision.

I mean, it was I never really thought it was a possibility for me.

It was great meeting with the kids at the high school this morning, because seeing that in them, can I do it?

They can.

But it was a jump at that for me at that point.

So what was your major at Purdue then?

I ended up graduating.

I took a semester off and went backpack through Europe with a girlfriend, so I had to do a lot.

I took like 21 hours a semester.

But I graduate with a degree in economics, sociology, history, and government.

So it's either going to teach in one level, and then a minor in business.

But I was just sort of piecing together different things.

I liked.

And then waiting to figure out what my next step was.

I didn't go in there, just driven to do this.

I always like learning.

I always like history.

I always like seeing where our place was in history.

Because I think you need to know the past to know where you're going in the in the future.

I thought I might teach, I teach at some level, whether it's college level or high school level, backpacking through Europe.

Okay, you got to tell me about that one.

Some of your favorite spots.

Well, I mean, it was it was the dollar was strong then.

And.

Yeah, so, I mean, I, we traveled from England to Portugal to Spain to Italy to Greece to, Austria, Germany, Norway.

How long was I.

Two months too.

Okay.

That was great.

It was, it was really, at that point, it was eye opening.

I love, you know, you know, Fatima and Lourdes and we, I, we times around being in east, in Rome, the Vatican on Easter, but I think it changes as a young woman, you know, just, you know, it changes your perspective on the world.

The world doesn't seem as big when you travel and see the commonality of, you, me entity.

Now mentioning the Vatican, I know your your your husband's a church deacon.

Yes.

And, you said your Catholic faith has shaped your career with valuable teachings regarding wisdom, humility, and justice.

Without humility, we cannot have justice.

But you read one of my talks.

That's right.

Is that a tattoo or something?

No, no, no, but I think, you know, you really want you.

You can't have justice without humility.

If you go in there thinking that you're better, than the people that stand before you, it's problematic.

So that's, the kind of guide you when you go into it.

It does into your, courts.

Okay.

When you were, a seeker and you were a law partner and then you served on the Tippecanoe Superior Court, for 14 years.

Do you remember that, those first cases as a sitting judge, I did, it was juvenile court, and which is a different kind of court because you really are dealing with abuse, neglect, trauma or trouble youth.

And I thought, you know, I, you know, I thought it was in shape I had litigated, but your first eight hours on the juvenile bench, seeing that amount of suffering, it was a lot.

And then you started looking.

Okay, what can I change?

You know, I want I didn't want to make everybody wait out in the hallway forever.

You've got to keep your cool.

You keep your court moving, keep your docket.

I change things around.

And I had night court on Tuesday nights because I don't want people to lose their job because they've got to go to court when they're already kind of holding on by a shoestring education for you, for me, with the children was very important to have truancy court at 730 on Thursday mornings.

Why do you think I had at 730 on Thursday mornings?

Because don't miss school because you're not going to school.

So you'd have the parents would have to come.

I used to get out and visit with all the schools, and meet with every ninth grader in the community every year as a juvenile judge.

Give them the same message at what choices?

How can you stay out of juvenile court?

But, I really, I, I love the juvenile bands.

Well that's enough.

Memories there for a book.

Yeah, definitely.

Now, did you take those cases home with you?

Sometimes you do, sometimes you do.

I mean, I had the kids used to give me pictures.

So on my bench and to Butte County, I was covered with the pictures of kids.

And so my last day on the bench, if you want a story on this jury, it's the last of the bench.

My one of my kids wanted to serve as my bailiff.

My youngest ones was not at the time, and I had a girl who had been in my court many times.

I explained to her that I was going down to Indianapolis.

I got a point is justice.

And she was not happy because sometimes the judge is the one constant in your life.

Your foster parent, your caseworker probation officer may change.

And so she started crying.

So I started crying.

And so my son like, did an army crawl under the bench.

This big tissue came up and he gave mom a tissue so I could block my eyes.

So yes, you can't.

You teach judges what you see.

I called vicarious trauma.

You know, I didn't.

I had shaken baby cases where you.

You've got to make the decision on the ventilator.

For a child molest cases.

So you're not impervious to them.

But I think what keeps you strong is just saying.

What can you do to make it better?

You know, these kids have been harmed.

Don't let the system harm them.

So what can we do from our point?

To, help them get their lives turned around?

And get back?

I know my my first day of retirement after 41 years at WFAA TV, I was sitting on a jury and it was a child molestation case, you know, and usually I've been called to jury, but they never picked me because I was in the media.

But they said, you're retired now.

I said, yes.

So they seated me on the chair.

Okay, so I sit through this, this, this trial and it's very emotional.

I mean, both sides are very emotional.

It was a young, teenage girl.

And did she have to testify in the courtroom?

Yes she did, and it's older man who was the defendant?

The back and forth and back and forth.

And then we go into the jury deliberate.

I mean, you get two sides there, and it's really it is it really is tough here.

You have a sympathy for this young lady.

But then there was no evidence.

And that's eventually we had to quit the guy because there was really no evidence there.

But I mean, it's, it's it's it works on you really.

I mean, but that's the key.

I mean, is there evidence people, you know, you look at when you talk about the attorney shortage, you really want to go into court on something that maybe you didn't do and you didn't, you know, or and even if you did, make sure that it was done.

So yes, those are tough cases.

Now, you served on the, you were chair of the Indiana Juvenile Justice Improvement Committee.

You were named juvenile judge of the year, served on national committees to protect the rights of children.

So what are some top issues on that agenda?

Well, that's part you said.

How do you do it?

Not take the case at home?

I think by doing things better, by looking at time frames.

Kids shouldn't be sitting in foster care for years before they get permanency.

What laws need to be tweaked and change?

And then let's hold the agencies that are supposed to be caring and, safeguarding the kids.

Let's hold them accountable.

If they're not doing what they need to be doing.

If his child sitting there and been harmed, but they have another caseworker see them for a period of time.

So there is a lot of laws that had I've testified in a lot of legislation with regard to kids.

And then when I came down the Supreme Court, I started I worked with the legislature, started Children's Commissioner, where we got all the policymakers for kids together on a committee.

And then we brought content experts in to educate us on how we can work together.

Things like, improving the lives of kids, information sharing.

You maybe have a foster parent or, you know, how do you get information to make sure that this child and school are doing this and that?

So there's a lot of steps that we took.

You have been quoted as saying you look forward to a time when a woman on the bench is unremarkable.

Now, when you were sworn in as the first female chief justice in Indiana, did you feel that, extra scrutiny?

Gee, I think so.

I mean, I remember I got asked a question and again, I'd had four kids, and our oldest was actually we adopted.

He had been in foster care.

And so I another child, another child, and then another 12 years later, another one.

So when I was interviewing for the Supreme Court, I remember getting the question, or maybe this was for Chief Justice about work life balance.

I thought, did you ask the guys the work life balance question?

I've been I've been working on this, I think I think I'll be okay.

So I think there was a little bit of just focused on the female.

I mean, I really respect Governor Daniels.

He made a point to say I'm not, you know, this isn't just, a diversity higher that we want somebody that's able to do the job.

But I am thrilled that I have so many more.

Probably a third of the judges are women in Indiana now, and that's I just I just need another one on my court.

I know I've interviewed that three of the appellate judges and ladies and they were all guests, all remarkable women.

Definitely.

My guest is Chief Justice of the Indiana Supreme Court, Loretta Rush.

Your job title is supervising the entire judicial branch.

That sounds like a big job.

So, and we talked about your, your take on having cameras in the courtroom.

Good idea.

Yes.

Not not everybody agrees with me, but I look at it from this standpoint.

Our currency is public trust.

And if you have a dispute you need to trust that you're going to get it fairly adjudicated.

And if you don't know what's going on in the judiciary, it's problematic.

So camera's going to show the hard, dedicated work our judges are doing, how they bring fairness, how you have these tough situations and you try to get order from them.

So I like cameras in the courtroom, but we've left it up to the judges.

I mean, if a judge does not want cameras in the courtroom or things, it's going to be a circle.

It's their call or it's going to be problematic.

You don't want a child witness the case you talked about.

I mean, you know, a child witness not being, victimized, on that.

But there's a lot that are it's interesting.

And I think people and the judges that have done it, I've met with a lot of them, things that I was worried about it.

But, you know, those cases, people are not playing to the camera.

They think that, oh, you're playing to the camera.

I had a camera in my courtroom as a juvenile judge because we were doing these, we're doing the record that way.

And I just turned as they couldn't see themselves, and nobody even paid attention to the cameras.

Well, if it becomes normal and routine.

Yes.

No big deal.

Now, the Indiana Supreme Court, decisions and there are written opinions.

Nine justices on the court.

So how how many agree on a decision and who writes the opinions?

We have our Constitution allows us to have nine.

We actually have five.

Okay.

So we have five justices, but 15 court appeals.

The next layer down, we, we talk we do a lot of research.

We have an oral argument on about every case, and then we sit and figure out where the majority is.

And then I assign the cases.

But there's a lot of input from them with regard to I'd like to write on this, or maybe it's a new justice who hasn't covered this area before.

Maybe it'd be good if you wrote this.

And we try to sort of even it out.

Do you get, like, in a small room?

And we're in a small room all the time, like yesterday we had.

It's that small.

It's a conference room room, but we sit around a table after we have oral arguments and we're together a lot to to find out where the center of gravity is.

A case where like 65, 70% unanimous on cases, we've got tough issues that come before us where we have to have, because it's not just a case that comes before us, is what's the impact of the case that comes before us on future cases.

So the precedent, the precedent.

So it's a lot of a lot goes into assigning it.

And then that's just the beginning.

And then you write it, it gets circulated.

There may be a dissent, there may be some fine tuning of it.

We have a very even though we don't agree on every issue, we have a very collaborative court.

We're together a lot.

We get along well.

And it's really a credit to Indiana.

And I give Chief Justice Shepherd, he's is sort of institutionalized collegiality.

And the Indiana Supreme Court.

And he's in the other room there.

He's making sure I don't mess up.

That's why he's monitoring.

You know, we talked about the importance of public trust and confidence in the court system.

And that means fair and impartial treatment for everyone.

Now, in 2020, you issued a statement on race and equity, five points that judicial officers should focus on to confront racial discrimination.

Number one, increased implicit bias training.

What's that?

Which is training, training our judges.

And it's very specific training.

And they've done that, to make sure that they're not, you know, think about this.

So when you're a juvenile court judge and you're dealing with people that live in poverty, you know, and I did a sort of poverty simulation, it may be impossible for them to say, okay, you've got to go meet with this therapist, get a job, go here, go here, go there.

You got to see people where they're at.

So implicit bias means that you don't maybe impose your socioeconomic values on the people that come for your court.

You see them wherever they're at.

And, accountability.

Accountability is.

Well, that's a that's a lot of what we do in the criminal justice system is accountable.

So how do you sentence someone, hold them accountable for their crime, but also work with them so that they understand, you know, let's say somebody suffering with substance abuse, but you're also dealing, you know, you can't deal with just their substance abuse and get them treatment.

You've got to they've got to be accountable for the fact that they're dealing.

So accountability is always part of the criminal justice system.

Number three compassion for the vulnerable and disadvantaged.

Yeah I mean, I think looking at that when I talk about the people that come in who have been multigenerational, you sort of poverty, substance abuse, instead of just having a punitive approach, sometimes try to figure out a way to give them the court system, give them the helping hand out of that, so that you're not piling on.

And here's an example.

We have really traumatized children that have been through just that, you would not imagine.

And you don't want to come and put them in a court system and put them in the room with their abuser, or you want, you know, what can we do to make their court experience better, to protect them?

And it's problematic.

And the disadvantages, let's say that you are that grandmother that wants to get custody of your.

But you have no money.

So we have done, like Indian legal help or we've got the coalition of court access.

How do we make volunteer lawyers available to those who can't?

For maybe you're a veteran that, you want to be able to access services or get VA benefits.

How do we make sure those services are available to you regardless of your social economic class?

So I think civil legal aid really goes to that.

Also improving the pathway for more people of color to become judges and lawyers.

Yeah, I think that I've always been an advocate for diversity on the bench.

I think it's important that we make sure that there's no roadblocks for people so that we have, more diversity on the bench because they're it's really been studied.

I mean, there's more trust you have in the judiciary when the judges look like the people that are coming before them on a regular basis.

And number five, equitable treatment of children across the court system here, there's a statistic that came out that, you know, children of color in Indiana, at the time that I wrote the statement and I have not received updated information.

We're in the foster care system four times longer than children do or not of color.

So, okay, we have this statistic.

What can we do about it?

You know, where are we?

Where are the barriers that we have to that?

Because it's not good for any child to be in the foster care system very long.

And if we know that that is so, what do we need to do to, look at that population and find out the whys?

So it's not like ten years from now.

It's, you know, six times as long was all sounds good on paper.

So what's been the impact that statement?

I mean I think we've really looked at that.

We've had trainings for judges.

I mean, right now in Indiana, you know, women and judges of color are now a third or more of the bench where it used to be less than that.

We have we do a lot of public speaking.

We have a program called the I Clio program that just to shepherd started.

And it's for, anyone that, is maybe first generation, any type of disadvantage that you're not on the path to go to law school.

How do we get you on that path to go to law school?

So we're seeing that happen with our judges.

We've got a Myra Selby has been really good.

She's done forums around the state with regard to public trust and confidence.

What are the barriers?

Why do people feel like there's a two tier system of justice?

And then we sort of work on getting that done.

Justice David led, sort of a multi branch group to look at these, came up with recommendations.

And we're working through those recommendations.

The whole report is on our website.

And where we are on the recommendations are as well.

Now the phrase you use direct access to justice.

What does that mean, that you.

Well, that's a that's a big phrase that you have that you're not like four takes away from it, right?

That you're somebody that needs to access the legal system to, you know, it's like veteran.

Here's example.

We have a lot of veterans in Indiana, and we have a number of veterans that come back from different tours of duty and get themselves in the criminal justice system.

How do we find them and and get them into veterans court?

So we develop technology that if somebody gets arrested who's a veteran, we get them help right away to get them to see if they qualify for I don't understand Veterans Court.

What's that?

Oh, it's a quarter for veterans.

So if you have a it's usually it's substance abuse or mental health or a combination.

So we have courts where there are criminal charges against a veterans.

And we work with the VA and we pair them up with a veteran.

We have a judge who's trained on veterans courts, and they come to court.

And if they're able to kind of, follow the law, get work, work on the substance abuse or mental health or both, then their charges in some cases can be expunged.

But it's a specialized court that we've really done a lot in Indiana.

We have tripled our problem solving courts and veterans is one of them, because we feel like we, you know, let's give a hand back to those that have done so much for us and have come back with some special needs, issuing limited licenses to practice law, licensing, paralegals, online law schools.

That's all part of your, I guess your push to increase the legal representation.

Those are not in place right now.

That's what's being studied.

And then they'll bring the recommendations to the court to what does a future of the court system look like?

And so these are recommend that we study what's going what are other states doing, what's working.

How do we make sure that people have that direct access to justice.

By having an attorney if they need that?

So we have we have people in this area, people from all over the state that are giving us information.

We have legislators on it, and they will be coming to us, and we will have to make that those decisions.

I think one of the other points was loan forgiveness to practice law in rural areas as well.

Now, the phrase return on investment.

You've used that before.

Yes.

I mean, I try to it's hard sometimes as a separate branch of government, when you go to another branch to get funding for your branch.

And so I look at courts as engines of economic development.

You know, the sooner you can get to court, get your contract dispute, to get your child support done, get your housing issue, the better you can get back to work and better for your community.

So I think when you look at the sheer volume of cases we have the the types of cases we have that having a well-run court system is good for the economy.

The Chamber of Commerce had a report that said, like 80% of companies look at the litigation environment of state before they do business or expand.

So that's on us.

Right.

So we have developed commercial courts.

You've got a business court down here in Evansville.

And we think that's important.

Time is money.

Sure is.

So, what are your goals for the coming years and the challenges facing judicial system?

Well, I'm up for retention.

I'm going to get retained.

And I think with I worry about the lack of trust or so too much focus on this case or that case as opposed to looking what we're doing globally.

You may not like that we resolve this case, but read the case.

There was an article in a local paper that talked about like an energy case that they only had one side, but we had found for and against energy companies based on what the law is written.

So know that we care about the people that come before us.

Do not vote.

Don't don't say, I'm going to vote all judges out because I think there will be chaos.

I mean, look at the judge.

Read the opinions on that.

So I so first I want to get through retention.

And I never think that's I don't think that's a given, particularly in this environment right now.

But the goals would be to make sure the courts in as good a shape when I leave it as Chief Justice Shepherd left it, that that justice, that access to justice, is met in Indiana and that the high standards that we set for our judges, and our legal professions, continue to be back.

So you had to have a passion for this job, right?

Yes, I think you do.

Indiana chief Justice Loretta Rush, thanks for being my guest on two Main Street.

And I guess underscoring the importance of having public trust and confidence in the men and women who make sure justice is served fairly and impartially.

Thanks for being my guest.

Thank you.