From the WNIN Tri-State Public Media Center in Downtown Evansville.

I'm David James and this is Two Main Street.

As we celebrate the life and legacy of Father Jerry Ziliak, the priest who grew up on a Gibson County farm, shipped out to India as a young man and spent 50 years touching the untouchables, teaching the poorest of the poor how to better their lives.

He built water wells, schools, a dispensary, brought electricity to the village of Karpur and most importantly, shared his farming knowledge to feed the hungry.

Father Ziliak died in 2010 at the age of 92, but his legacy lives on.

Here to share the story of father Jerry are Mary Ellen Ziliak, whose new book is ‘Touching The Untouchables The Heart of a Missionary’, and Caroline Nellis, who went to India to produce a documentary on Father Jerry's work called ‘Heroes Still Walk’.

So, ladies, welcome to Two Main Street.

Good to have you here.

Mary Ellen, let's start with you.

You sent a petition recently, with the Archdiocese of Chicago to consider Father Jerome Ziliak for canonization.

So tell me about that.

Well, that was an exciting step.

And yes, I did petition the Archdiocese of Chicago, which is where father Jerry Ziliak died.

And to petition someone for sainthood.

You have to approach the diocese that they died in, not where they were raised.

So, I sent a petition to, His Eminence, Cardinal Blaise Cupich.

He oversees the Archdiocese of Chicago.

So that was sent about two weeks ago.

And for sainthood.

It's a very regimented process with four steps.

So right now, we are just praying that that first step happens, which is declaring father Jerry a servant of God.

So that's what we're hoping for now.

So that could be, a week, a year, a decade or longer.

Now, Caroline, you traveled to this remote village in India where father Jerry spent almost all of his priesthood.

But you spent you made two trips to India, right?

Right.

What was this first trip about?

The first trip was, I hadn't had a vacation in ten years, and I'd save some money up, and I decided to do a half a year backpacking trip around Southeast Asia.

So, my Aunt Lucy, my mother was a wine sampler, and two of her sisters married into the Schmidt family, which had a whole bunch of boys.

And one of the other people that married to the Schmidt family was Geneva Ziliak, who was father's sister.

And so, since she was my aunt's sister in law, they said, if you get to anywhere near his place in India, you've got to stop and see Father Jerry.

And the first month I went through, I didn't I went up two months in Nepal, and then I was heading back through India and I was heading for Singapore.

And then I was hoping by ferry to hop skip my way through Indonesia, down to Australia.

So I was not interested in prolonging my trip, you know, in India.

But when the train, I looked at the train route and I saw that it was getting close to Karpur, and I thought, Aunt Lucy's going to ask me, and I can't lie to her and I can't disappoint her, so I'll just go in.

I was writing a series of articles for the Evansville Courier on my trip, and I thought, well, there's a lot of wine samples and Ziliaks and Schmidts and, they'll probably enjoy a story about him, so I'll just get off the train, go in for a day or two, get my article and my pictures, and then I'll be on to Australia.

And, I just I made my plan, but I wasn't taking into account that I was going to meet one of the more amazing people in my life.

And I stayed three weeks and I never made a duster.

Yeah.

Now, that was your first trip?

Yeah, it was my first trip.

Now, the second time you went back and produced this documentary, right?

I found out he was being retired after basically about 50 years.

And, that what I had witnessed, that first trip was so amazing to me.

I thought that needs to be documented because so much of what he's doing is applicable through a lot of the Third World.

And, I was hoping it would get more interest in the Third World, and it really didn't move that far.

But I think I didn't know until the day he picked me up at the train that he was going to be so astounding.

When we were, you know, he picked me up on the train and we're in his jeep.

It's too noisy, the Jeep ride to talk at all.

And so I'm sitting there and I'm just looking and I thought, I think I see green out there.

And I had not seen any green in the mid part of India at all.

Not the first time I went up north coming back because they were in the midst of a three year drought.

Oh, boy.

And it was just people's bones were showing the animals.

It was emaciation.

And, so there wasn't green.

I mean, it was just a brown, desolate landscape.

And I kept blinking my eyes, and I kept thinking, boy, that looks like green.

And I kept blinking and it kept getting larger.

And I thought, that is green.

What would be green out here?

And as we got closer, it started defining into trees, tea trees and bamboo groves and crops.

There's this 100 plus acres of green in the midst of total devastation.

And that's father.

That was Father Jerry's work.

And I thought, how did he manage to do that in the middle of a three year drought?

We're going to talk a lot about his farming techniques, what he brought to Indian during this program.

Now, Mary Ellen, I attended your book launch.

I also shared my review of touching the Untouchables.

Here's the closing paragraph of my review.

‘Touching The Untouchables’ is an action filled adventure as we follow the journey of a 13 year old boy as he embarks on a lifetime of service, a world away from his family's southern Indiana farm.

We meet a cast of characters, feel the blazing heat and dodge arrows from an angry tribesman, but in the end, Father Jerry brushes off the dust, lies down on his mat, and thanks God for a good day and a good life.

There's a lot of adventure in this book ‘Touching The Untouchables’, and it's all from a journal that you discovered.

Tell me about that.

Well, the journal is I'd like to say it's a nice, neat combination of pages, but the journal and notes and scraps of paper and old calendars has all the information that I shared in Touching the Untouchables book.

But, I came across it after I'd made a promise to Father Jerry that I'd write it all down for him and my mother in law, who was also Mary Ellen.

Ziliak was the last remaining person of Father Jerry's generation in the Ziliak family.

She was a sister in law, so my father in law was naturally married to Mary Ellen.

And Father Jerry and Leonard were brothers, so she inherited a lot of his personal belongings.

So she shared that with me, knowing I was looking to put some, something like a book together about Father Jerry.

So I found the scraps of papers and journals in her attic.

And that's what got me started writing the book.

It took three tries.

It took 13 years.

So it was a labor of love.

But it all started with what I found in her attic amongst toys and what everybody keeps in their attic, junk!

Right.

Now of course, you wrote this book after making a promise to Father Jerry on his deathbed.

You that's that's an interesting story as well.

He kind of grabbed your hand.

He did.

I was one of five Ziliak members who went to Techny, Illinois [outside Chicago].

And that's where Father Jerry had retired as the divine word.

Priest.

And we were up there because we had gotten a call from the nurse saying he's taken a turn for the worse.

You need to come see him now if you want to say goodbye.

This is in 2010?

Well, actually, it was 2012, July of 2012.

Yes.

And so we went up there, the five of us.

And the idea was to kind of sort through his belongings and see what he wanted to go where, you know, it was just the end of life decisions and not being a blood relative, having married into the family, I kind of stood back and let the closer relatives go through belongings.

So I hung out with Father Jerry.

So I had the best job and he was debilitated, but very alert and oriented.

So we were talking and he kept up on everything in the family and sports, anything happening in the world he knew.

My first book was due out that year, and so he was asking me about it, and then he got really restless and I said, Father Jerry, what's got you so upset?

And he said, my work's not done.

And that kind of floored me.

And I said, you are 92.

You spent 50 years working in the jungles with the poorest of the poor.

What do you have left?

He goes, I don't have it all written down.

And he did.

He grabbed my hands and was telling me this very emphatically and without even thinking much.

I said, don't worry, Father Jerry, I'll write it down for you.

Well, yeah.

So when I said that, there was just an immediate calm came over him, but he passed my hands and got right in my face, and he said, you promise?

I said, yes, I promise.

Well, two days later, he died.

So the story continues.

From there.

There was no way I could not keep that promise.

But it was a longer journey than I anticipated.

Now, Father Jerry’s, of course, service in India.

He accomplished a lot there.

And, of course, India.

You know, there's a you can get you can get sick over there, can't you?

Caroline?

That was, Yes, I found that out in my second when we went over to actually film, climate change hit India really, really early because of the devastation and deforestation of such a large population.

And so sometimes there would be 3 or 4 years of drought, and then there would be rains that came.

And father would said that he sometimes recorded as much as five inches in an hour.

He called them the toads.

Mad toad smashers.

Anyway, the the rainy season was supposed to be over when we went to film, but it wasn't because of climate change.

It was dragging on and on, and we were having storms every day, and there was lots of mosquitoes.

When we went to film in the dispensary for the poor, the clinic the mosquitoes were for, you know, flying right from the patients onto us.

And, I ended up with a really horrible, mosquito borne virus.

It wasn't when I got back here, I was hospitalized, and the doctor said, it's as if you have simultaneously the symptoms of both meningitis and malaria.

But it's neither of those.

It doesn't match any, sample that we have at all.

So we just.

It's an unknown virus.

And, you know, it affected me for years afterwards.

Yeah, but it definitely impacted me a lot while I was trying to edit this film, that I did the documentary.

It, I felt like, looking back on it, I would have edited it much more tightly than I did.

But to just get the editing finished when you're that sick was.

So I felt like I'd made the touch down.

But ironically, Father Jerry never got sick, did he?

He didn't, he liked, to just drop the fact that he'd been there all those years and never missed a day of work.

He just didn't.

And, I mean, he was exposed to some serious stuff like cholera.

I mean, sick calls.

He makes calls and be in these contained spots with serious illnesses.

Now, Father Jerry, was an environmentalist, wasn't he, who believed in protecting our natural resources.

And I guess that's right up your alley.

Caroline.

Yeah.

Because, you're really, kind of an advocate for protecting our our natural resources.

And Father Jerry's a champion one day.

He's the reason I started.

Oh.

Really?

Yes.

It was seeing what was happening in India.

And that was to me, it was a clue of what was coming for the rest of the world.

But it was just happening there so much earlier.

And, when I saw he used so much, renewable energy, he used wind energy, he used methane digesters, from the, bull... crap?

You know, I don't know how else to say it.

The dung on the dung.

Thank you.

The cow dung.

Yeah.

And, he use solar power.

He, regenerative farming, it was just an amazing.

I did not expect anything like that.

It was, of course, you know, this.

It shows how clever he was.

He ended up buying.

He did a trade with some farmers that at the edge of his, field was this big hill of just stone.

And he offered them two of his best acres in trade for that hill of stone.

And, of course, they were all laughing like he and he so smart.

After they made the trade, he used that, he used that.

He put a big water tower at the top.

So all he would have to do is use one pump to water, take the water from a well up to that holding tower, and then gravity feed it to every place in the entire 100 acres.

So it was just so clever, and no one else would have thought of the importance of gravity feed to keep down your need for your electricity and your pumping and all that.

He just he was he was clicking on every cylinder.

So he got the last laugh.

Yeah.

Now, Mary Ellen, of course, Father Ziliak had a farming background, grew up on a farm, near hob.

Started.

Yes, in Haubstadt.

Right.

And of course, that, knowledge served him well, teaching the Untouchables how to make a living and feed their families.

He also brought some seed from southern Indiana to Kanpur.

He did, he did natural hybridization.

So, I mean, he did selective breeding and in for his, seed corn so that it would be ideal in the arid climate and around the monsoon rains.

So he wanted something that was adaptable.

So he did research by going to Mexico when he was home on visits and would go to some research areas there.

He'd also go to Purdue and tie in their research to try to come up with, a seed that was best to grow in India.

And so that's what he did.

And it took him years because he'd plant something and then he'd pick out, oh, this has the right height, this has the right depth of roots.

He'd have to space it a certain way.

But he did a lot of research in Thailand, local, seed companies also in Indiana, to help him come up with the right formulation.

I know pictures in your book and then in your documentary of, Father Jerry out in the fields.

He's looking he's tasting the crops, testing the soybeans.

Yes.

And making sure everything's going okay.

Yes.

And, you didn't see him in priestly garb much, did you know he was he kind of had a uniform.

Mostly that we see pictures of him in worn jeans and a plaid farm shirt, and he always wore a pith helmet.

Which, Yeah.

Reminded me of Doctor Livingston on in the old movies.

My guests are Mary Ellen Ziliak, author of ‘Touching the Untouchables’, The Heart of a missionary, and Caroline Nellis, who traveled to India to interview father in the village of Karpur.

Her documentary is ‘Hero Still Walk’.

And, so Jerry the Father.

Jerry gets to see the film.

Yes he did.

What was his impression?

I think he was very delighted with it.

Yeah.

He actually came down here.

We the Evansville Museum allowed us to have an opening reception there, and so Father Jerry was got to speak to a lot of people, the people that had supported the documentary that given money.

And it was, we had a really nice day that day.

So I think he was pleased to see that his work could go on after him.

And the title for it actually, the day he was driving me back on that first visit to, back to the train station when I was there in 87, as we were leaving, I, I turned my head and I look back on it and I just thought, heroes still walk this earth.

Because there are larger than life people that you meet that are dedicated, are willing to give up their lives to make other people have a better reality.

And, I think to me, he was one of the heroes I met in my life.

So, I when I went to make that documentary a dozen years later, when I found out he was being retired, I thought, oh, my God, all that information cannot be wasted, you know?

So, I went back there and I went.

I was thinking of the title.

I thought, I think it came to me the day I was leaving this place.

The first time: ‘Heros Still Walk’ Now, Mary Ellen, that you were at the father's, bedside just days before he died, making that promise to him to tell his story.

And you write.

How can you say no to a dying priest?

And you say kind of Father Jerry kind of guided you through this book writing process.

Well, he died two days later, so he did not live to guide me through.

But I think you have can you had visions?

And I talk to you.

He wakes me up early in the morning between 330 and 530, and puts these crazy ideas in my mind at the time.

I think they're crazy, but I have learned to jot down whatever's placed in my mind and on my heart, and it usually leads to something I'm supposed to do.

So I guess you could call that divine intercession.

But I still feel his influence.

And throughout my writing, I have my office set up that I surround myself with his paraphernalia.

Okay, so I have his notes, I have his journals, I have his scraps of paper.

I have his glasses that he wore, and I don't clean them.

They're still smudge because he he's just a true silly act that that's minor.

You know, you don't worry about dirty glasses, but if I got to a point that I felt a bit blocked, I'd put his glasses on and it would distort what I was looking at, but it kind of quiet at me and centered me to just hear what I was supposed to write next.

So yes, I feel his influence still today.

That's pretty cool.

Now let's learn more about car poor.

Where is it?

How do you get there?

Caroline, you got there.

How did you get to car?

Poor, both times by train, and then picked up, I'm trying to think of the name Madhya Pradesh state.

I cannot remember the name of the large town.

Now, when you.

When it's the second time you did, you fly there to, We flew in, both times I went there, I flew in first time it was Bombay, and the second time I went back, it was already.

It had been, renamed Mumbai.

But and then took a train.

So train travel was the most, you know, that's what you did.

Mostly for long travel in India.

Well, how long was the train ride from Mumbai to that car?

Oh, I would say it was probably.

I know we did it all in one day.

I cannot remember exactly how long.

So then they picked you up at the train station.

Then you had to take the in a jeep.

Well, how was the roads to Karpur then?

Really?

Not so much roads.

It's just dirt.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

All right.

Now, what was your first impressions of seeing Karpur the first time you went there?

It was like I said, it was very amazing because the greenery, the greenery, the the crops, he was able to produce, it was lovely.

And, he had large areas where he was growing, a grove of bamboo so people could use that if they needed something to be cut for, housing, you know, building their huts with or, so he was trying to make it so they wouldn't have to walk long ways because most of the, woods of any sort had been deforested.

Right.

The women might have to walk, you know, 3 or 4 hours in order to get to a place that had a few sticks that they could bring home.

They would have bundles on their head, and they would be carrying them back enough to, heat, wood for, or heat their huts and also to heat their food.

So he tried to make it so that there would be something that they could use right there on the premises.

Not everybody.

Most of the, methane that came out of the digester went to the school for the school's gas system.

And then gradually they were building in and up and getting by.

The second time I was there, some of the individual houses had their own digester.

So it was it grew the use, the teak trees he planted basically as Social Security, a pension plan for the people in the village.

By the time those trees grew up and they got old, that they would have a source of income because teak sells, you know, it's a tremendously expensive wood.

Well, this is quite a contrast to when Father Jerry first arrived in Karpur, wasn't it?

Because there was nothing there, really?

Right, right there was.

While he started out, the first ten years he was in Java, which was very much a jungle in a mountainous area, so it was even rougher.

He called it, the roughest of the outback.

So Karpur was a little more civilized, you know.

Arrows.

Yeah.

Not you didn't have arrows flying like you did in the jungle or Java.

But those first ten years was it was a very primitive area of jungle.

And you also write in your book that Father Jerry did not want to go to India.

Well, no.

He there when, he, graduated from seminary and was ordained a priest in 1947.

That, mission that he was with was device society of Divine word.

And they trained missionaries and they were an international, seminary.

So they went to five countries at that time.

And he said, oh, I'll go anywhere.

He said, but I really don't want to go to India.

He wrote it in capital letters.

Yes, he did.

He said, not India capital letters, but he took a vow of obedience.

So he went to India.

So he learned that lesson the hard way.

Of course, the caste system is, I guess, still kind of lingering on in India.

It was officially abolished in 1948.

I believe prejudice still remains in many parts of the country.

Some 3000 castes.

I read many more sub caste based on occupations.

The untouchables were on the lowest rung of the social ladder.

So what did that mean?

That lowest rung?

Well, that lowest rung.

The way Father Jerry explained it at the time when he got there, was he kind of mentioned Five Caste and the first four were acknowledged by the community, but The outcast were called that initially because they didn't even rate a rank.

No, really.

So that's why they were called the outcast, the untouchables, the Dalits and so they did not have any kind of, privileges really.

Even they could not drink out of the same.

Well, as someone of a higher caste, they couldn't eat at the same table.

A dog under the table could get a scrap.

An outcast, an untouchable could not sit at the same table with a higher caste.

And even though it was abolished shortly after he got there, it still had a great, great influence on the culture.

And there's still some scene today.

It's my understanding.

Carolyn, I know in your documentary, you talk about the relationship between the Untouchables and another lower caste, the tribals.

And there was a difference between those two ones, wasn't there?

If you compared it to our society, it would be like Native Americans and blacks.

Really?

Yeah.

That's basically, because the, the, the tribals are the natives of that country.

And both of those, parts, caste, parts of society.

I work with a homeless, group that takes care of homeless kids in southern India.

I'm a board member for them.

And they're still the same people, the, you know, the outcast and the tribals are the same ones that are still being, you know, it.

It just goes on.

Prejudice does not go away easily.

Well, I think even in your documentary you say that the tribals and the, untouchables, didn't want to drink at the same.

Well, did they know?

No.

They thought the other one was the bottom.

Oh.

So.

Okay.

Wow.

That's amazing.

Now, life in car, poor subsistence living.

When Father Jerry arrived, he wanted to change that.

Introducing these farming methods.

He learned back in the hop start and the sustainable farming.

What is that?

Development.

Is that called sustainable development?

Well, he kind of coined the phrase before, I think.

I don't know if he really called it sustainable farming.

He called it a respect for earth.

Okay.

His whole thing was if we live, remind ourselves to respect each other, the earth, the plants, the trees, the animals, everything around us, and we wouldn't have many problems.

So that's the way he approached his farming that he respected the earth.

It was to be honored because it was a gift from God.

So he kind of took that approach.

He didn't have a, true, phrase, but it was sustainable farming in that he didn't want a depleted he didn't want to abuse it.

He wanted to honor it by using it for what God intended.

Now, Caroline, that's your whole bit in a in an interfaith creation care.

That's the group you're with, right.

So what's your mission with that group?

Well, it is to promote, good stewardship of the Earth, which is exactly what father Jerry and all faiths can do.

That.

Right?

Yeah.

Yeah, it's an interfaith.

And I started that with I think it was in 2015.

So we're at ten years of that.

And, I've worked with a lot of climate and environmental groups through the years.

I've had to cut back in the last couple of years because my family is aging.

I need to take health care with, I think family comes before all else, but I will always think that respect for the Earth is absolutely crucial for every species that exist, including humans.

So let's go back to, Father Jerry's, growing up in southern Indiana.

So how did this farm boy end up in the priesthood, Mary Ellen?

Well, Father Jerry shared that at the age of nine, he knew God wanted him to become a priest, which is early.

And.

And you think, well, kids changed their mind.

I wanted to be a ballerina at nine.

Well, that didn't happen.

But he knew that was his vocation in life.

And so he followed the guidance of his pastor at Saint James Church, where he went to school and attended church.

And, at one point he said, you know, Jerry, we need missionaries.

Have you given thought to go on the Techni?

Well, Father Jerry had never heard of Techni, but it came from his mentor.

So, he ended up going to tech Ni at the age of 13 to become a priest.

So he attended all of high school, college, all up there, and he never came back to live at home again after that age of 13.

He just knew in his heart this is what he was supposed to do.

Now in the documentary, Heroes Still Walk, we actually hear the voice of Father Jerry has kind of a German accent, doesn't he?

I will tell you a lot of the, even my aunts, I've noticed we're all of German descent, and I think a lot of Gibson County and Posey County.

There's still the hint of our.

Our ancestors are her voice.

Yes.

Okay, now, if I can throw something out.

I picked up British accent.

Now there's a little British in there.

That's what I. What?

I heard you pick up British.

Yeah.

And and some of that I think is that first ten years he never came home.

He was in India speaking Hindi.

Okay.

And India was a colony of Britain for centuries.

And I've picked up, okay, even more of the British accent combined with the German.

Anyway, he was hard to understand.

Okay, I got the German, British, Hindi, German, yes.

Okay, there we go.

So challenge now, in the documentary, we made some, some great, characters besides father Jerry, sister Justin, wonderful lady.

Yes.

Tell me about her.

You know, she ran the clinic, which was very important.

You everybody needed, free medical care.

And there just, you know, that that just didn't happen.

So she made it happen.

And she also, she ran a a women's group.

Women, are really a low echelon of that society also.

And, those women did not have the money to buy things for themselves.

Like, it was so handy.

If you could have a metal container to hold your water, so that you could keep it for days, you know, in a, in a closed, metal container.

But buying one of those was way too expensive.

But her group, they got together once a week, the women in the village that wanted to join, and they would each bring.

And I don't remember how many rupees anymore.

I don't know if it was ₹5.

I can't remember very minimal amount.

Because back then I think when I filmed it was probably about ₹43 would be the equivalent of one of our dollars.

As far as what it would buy.

And, so the women would collectively save that, and when they got enough to afford one of those metal containers, there would be a drawing.

And whoever got the drawing, they would, they got purchased one of those metal, and then they would start the whole process all over again until every woman owned one.

And then they also did that.

I think with owning, I think goats, so that they would have something that they could milk that would give their family some food and, you know, milk, or, and cheese.

But then also that they could breed and then be able to maybe sell an animal.

So, Sister Justin was like Father Jerry in that she had that deep commitment of of sacrificing for others, but to try to open their world up.

And she did a lot for the women and the poor.

We talked about weather playing a major role in the lives of the poor in India, because the extremes in the weather there, the blazing heat, the monsoons and those long dry spells also, animals eating and destroying crops, even wild animals.

The story of the panther terrorizing the village, right?

They did deal with wild animals through that time.

That Father Jerry was there.

And they deal with, jackals, black panthers, wild pigs, especially in Java and, what was the other thing?

Oh, King cobras, oh, deadly king cobras.

So, there were a lot of animals to deal with.

And I know Father Jerry shared the story of, a panther grabbing the neighbor's dog off the front porch.

But, a serious story.

Early on, when father Jerry first arrived into job one, was that a panther had killed five village children, and the villagers had not had success bagging the the panther.

So father Jerry had one of the few guns, and they approached him asking for his help.

And, he shared the story that he went out to hunt the Panther, and they.

And they did kill the panther.

And it kind of brought acceptance for him in that village.

So, Yeah.

So when I first agreed to write everything down for him, I told my husband on the way home, I said, yeah, I think I agreed to write Father Jerry's Panther story.

And he laughed.

He goes, oh no, honey, you agreed to write the whole thing.

And also, there's a story in Father Jerry's journal about, bandits and being attacked by tribesmen armed with bows and arrows.

That's kind of a frightening.

Yes.

And that count that actually happened later.

In 1990, he had notes of taking a trip to Indore, which was one of the larger, actually may have been the largest city in, Madhya Pradesh.

The state.

And he had business there.

So driving there, he drove through Java, where he spent the first ten years.

And it's a very mountainous area.

And at the time, the, the dacoits is what they were called, which was some of the aboriginal tribal people that were Balb I l was the tribe, and they made their foot and living putting food on the table by, hunting, fishing and looting the travelers.

And because things were being depleted, there were less animals and less fish.

So the robberies went up.

And so when father Jerry was going through in 1990, there was a lot of attacks of robbers to the travelers going up the mountain side.

So the police really did not patrol the whole area.

It was too dangerous.

There were too many killed.

And so they stopped the travelers until they could do a caravan of about 15.

Okay, so at that wagon train.

Yeah, it was it was a wagon train.

And rod, brought father Jerry was, the first waiting for, 15 to accumulate.

And then those 15 vehicles together went up the mountainside to get through to the other side towards Indore.

And so he talks about there were bows and arrows that could attack them.

And they were hard for the police to locate, because a bow and arrow is very quiet.

And so you could not tell what direction it was coming from.

So it was a dangerous endeavor.

But he just wrote about it like he did.

How many bushels of wheat he got that week?

So many adventures.

Mary Ellen, in your book, there's a photo of Father Jerry with Mother Teresa, who became Saint Teresa.

Anything in the journal about that meeting?

Yes.

One of the early notes I came across when I was foraging through the attic remnants, was a note that Father Jerry had made in his little, is a little pocket notebook that he kept is how many bushels of wheat he got per acre.

And there was a one line entry saying, Mother Teresa stopping by, thirsty to talk about her new place for the girls.

And that was the first mention I saw.

That was in 1984.

So I don't know when they first met, but I know they had some kind of communication at that point in 1984, and then we have a picture that many of us in the celiac family have copies of, of Father Jerry and Mother Teresa clutching hands and they're bent into each other, leaning forward talking.

And that was taken in 1993.

So I know that span of time she was on the East Coast.

He was in north central India.

They just they kind of compared notes, is my understanding and, work together trying to do their, their part in helping the poor.

And he's done in his priestly garb.

Is he never, never.

No.

She's in habit and white, but no, he's always in here.

He did take his hat off, for that one picture.

Okay, now, Caroline, in your, documentary, you show the many projects that Father Jerry helped get off the ground.

We talked about the harvesting dung as a power source.

Also a successful dairy, cow and water buffalo milk.

Yes.

Because he could keep them cool.

He built big pools for them to stand in, so they could stay in that water and stay cool.

Even during the hot season so they could produce more milk.

Right?

Exactly.

When nobody else's, cattle and bullocks were producing anything his were producing.

Fine.

So that was a good source of income for them.

And it did get warm the first time I visit.

It was actually in hot season and in the under the, the breezeway in the coolest place on the whole thing.

The thermometer was registering usually 112 degrees.

So I'm sure out in the fields it was, it had to be at least 120.

Well, it was, it was definitely hot.

And the first time I got there, they had just gotten electricity.

I mean, it hit a just yet.

So each room had one light bulb and it had, overhead fan, which went really, really slow.

So at night, the, you know, the coolest part of the day was during the night, and it would still be in the 90s.

So everybody took we took our cots outside and we slept outdoors, in or because the fans moved too slowly to, But it was so beautiful at night, because there was no, you know, there was no, light pollution.

That was certainly, you know, no humidity.

So the stars were magnificent.

It was just a truly lovely part of the experience.

I thought, well, tell me about the documentary crew.

How many people went with you to produce this documentary?

On us, videographer, our director of photography and a sound man, and myself.

So is the three of us.

How long were you there to do this film?

Three and a half weeks.

Three and a half weeks?

Yeah.

So, I was really lucky.

They're both very high quality people.

Did a lot of work for National Geographic, and, really, of the money we raised, the most money we spent for anything was paying them, and I think they did a marvelous job.

So we were lucky in that.

Now, Father Jerry, of course, had his ministerial duties over their use.

Still, for priest, you have to do that job.

Were the Aboriginals religious at all?

Well, the majority in the areas he stayed all those years was highly populated with Hindu religion.

And I think conservatively, he at one point said, well, 80% of the country is Hindu.

I think it might have been higher, I think, than that.

But, so it was very unique and new to introduce Christianity.

Father's approach was very practical.

He said, I'm here to bring Christ to everyone.

But he said, I can't talk to someone about God if their stomach is growling.

So his thing was, take care of basic needs.

And by doing that you share about God.

So that was his approach was, of course, when he got there, there was no chapel.

Obviously there was a rough set up, but I don't know that they called it a chapel.

There was a Father Gerry Hosty was there several years.

I had a father.

Jim was okay.

And so he wasn't the first pastor of that area.

So they had an area where they said mass because, you know, they'd say mass at least once a day.

And, Saint Mary's was the name of the church, but I don't know the first date of Saint Mary's offhand.

I know it was celebrated along the way in the 80s, I think.

So it might have been the 30s, I don't know.

I'm sorry, Carol, that you were there.

There was a chapel when you were there.

It was a nice sized church.

Where?

The church?

Yeah, they had built a church, and it was, they had a pretty good.

Most of the people in the village attended on Sunday masses.

Okay.

So it it had a I don't know whether that continued after he was gone or not.

I've been curious.

I know the population.

When Father Jerry got to Karpur was 312.

And, by the time he left, he said there was a little over 1000 in car poor in that village.

So.

And the average farm size he shared was 15 acres.

That was a good size farm.

So, well, I'm sure when he first arrived, the infant mortality rate was pretty high.

Was very high.

Yes.

And so with this dispensary and, and then the medical care, I'm sure that improved dramatically.

What's the latest news from car?

Poor of you keep in contact with, well, I have three contacts currently.

Two.

Our divine word, society of divine word priests, missionaries like Father Jerry was.

And one is sender.

He is, an adult, now retired school teacher who grew up as one of the children in the village of Car poor.

So they have been sending me pictures and updates.

It's changed quite a bit.

But there's a still an influence of what father Jerry had started.

The teak trees.

I know at one point that Father Jerry started back in, 60, 80, I think, is when he planted the first teak tree, and that was up to 30,000 at one point.

So that still has a presence.

So, I just recently got something from cinder, the, the village child that grew up to be a teacher saying, I need to come over and see the changes.

It's changed.

But he said there's still a strong presence of what father Jerry started.

There is not another missionary that was assigned to actually replace him in that role.

So he's still revered in that community.

He is.

Yes.

And it's, I think part of sender's encouragement for me to come over and visit is to appreciate Father Jerry's influence.

That is still there.

And I know he shared a picture that is still there of Father Jerry, in the chapel area so that the church is still there.

The school is still there is my understanding now as we wait to hear about this, new possible journey to sainthood for Father Jerome Ziliak.

Your final thoughts on his life and legacy?

Caroline, let's start with you.

Your, your remembrance of Father Jerry.

He was such a down to earth person.

And yet very clever.

He really thought, you know, if he saw a problem, he was going to find a solution to it, and he would do research, you know, during the hot part of the day that they do basically like a siesta time.

So from noon to 2 or 2:30 p.m., everybody goes to their rooms pretty much, you know, and stays away from the heat.

And I had the room next to him and I would hear him during there.

He the typewriter was going, going, going, going.

He was always he said, some of the most valuable classes he took is when he was up at Techni was he, he learned scenography and typing and he said both really handy skills.

I can take notes really fast.

And, so he was always, you know, contacting, sending letters out, getting information about possible ways to handle any problem.

If he had lived in the day of the internet, that man would have been so obedient.

Yeah, it was all slow, you know, he had to send letters all over the place.

How would we build this?

Send me a diagram.

How would we do this?

And, I just, he had great tenacity of character.

Mary Ellen, your thoughts of Father Jerry?

Well, I feel like he has left us such a rich legacy.

And I feel like I'm a conduit that, at.

It's the right time to share some of what he lived and taught and shared with his, villagers in Karpur.

But, I think the time is right to share his message of all living things are connected.

Because I think our society is so divided right now.

That's a challenge we have that I think Father Jerry's message of all living things are connected is valuable right now.

So I think the timing is correct that there's a reason it took 13 years to share this story.

We need to be reminded of the most basic thing that what we do here can affect people across the globe.

So we have to be conscious of that and and reach out to make those connections.

So I feel like, some of what's evolving from Father Jerry's days and story is now coming to fruition.

For that reason.

Again, my thanks to Mary Ellen Ziliak and Caroline Nellis for sharing the journey of Father Jerry Ziliak, who preached Love Thy Neighbor and as you said, like throwing a pebble in a pond.

The ripple effect can go all the way from a farm field in southern Indiana to the jungles of India.

Thanks again for being my guests on Two Main Street.

You're welcome.

Thank you.

Thank you.