GEOFF BENNETT: Good evening.

I'm Geoff Bennett.

AMNA NAWAZ: And I'm Amna Nawaz.

On the "News Hour" tonight: The jobs# report delay.. shows better-than-expected# hiring, but there are still## big questions for the Federal Reserve# and more pressure from the president.

GEOFF BENNETT: The Trump administration comes# up with plans to end the war in Ukraine which## require significant concessions# Ukraine has previously rejected.

AMNA NAWAZ: And the Trump family's# promotion of cryptocurrency raises## questions of influence and# profiting from the presidency.

DAVID YAFFE-BELLANY, The New York Times:# People who are based in foreign countries## and are banned from donating to the# political process in the U.S.

have## this new route for directing# money toward the president.

(BREAK) AMNA NAWAZ: Welcome to the "News Hour."

Job growth was better than expected in September,## with 119,000 new jobs added.

Those# were the best job gains since April.

GEOFF BENNETT: The unemployment rate rose to# 4.4 percent, its highest level in four years,## as about half-a-million people# reentered the labor force.## The official report comes seven weeks# late, after the government shutdown,## making it the first federal snapshot of# the labor market since agencies reopened.

But key economic data is still missing# and questions remain about the true## strength of the economy.

The uncertainty now lands## squarely on the Federal Reserve as it# prepares to consider another rate cut.

Austan Goolsbee, president of the# Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago,## is one of the officials weighing that# decision.

I spoke with him earlier today.

Austan Goolsbee, welcome back to the "News Hour."

AUSTAN GOOLSBEE, President, Federal Reserve Bank# of Chicago: Yes, thank you for having me, Geoff.

GEOFF BENNETT: And let's start with# your reaction to the September jobs## report.

Looking at the numbers,# slightly better than expected,## solid hiring, but the unemployment rate# creeped up a bit.

What's your read on## what this report is actually saying# about the direction of the economy?

AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: Well, better late# than never.

We're not getting this## number until well after when we normally# would have gotten it.

So a little bit## it's a misleading indicator of where# things are headed because it's out of date.

But I think mostly the numbers show the job market# has remained steady in an unusual low-hiring,## low-firing kind of environment.

So, normally, if# you have low hiring, you have high firing and high## layoffs, or the reverse.

But here, whether because# there's a lot of uncertainty or for other reasons,## we're in a moment where the unemployment rate# remains fairly low by historical standards,## is gradually cooling, but# overall pretty steady, I think.

GEOFF BENNETT: You mentioned the delay in# getting this September jobs report.

Of course,## during the shutdown, there was a blackout# of official government economic data.

How much does that complicate the Fed's ability# to accurately assess the economy right now?

AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: A lot.

It complicates it a lot.

And the same people who are collecting# the job numbers also collect inflation## numbers.

And whereas, on the job side, we# at least have some pretty decent indicators## even when the official jobs numbers are# delayed or not coming out, we have some## private sector sources at the state level -- the# new unemployment claims give us some readings.

The Chicago Fed itself puts out its labor# market indicators.

On the inflation side,## it's even more problematic because there# aren't nearly as many private sector sources## to tell us about what's happening with# inflation.

So it definitely complicates## the job of a Central Bank if you're# not getting the information you need.

GEOFF BENNETT: There's been some anxiety# in the market this past week over whether## the surge in A.I.

investment was turning# into something of a bubble.

Where do you## stand on that?

Is too much of the# economy leaning on that sector?

AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: It might be.

Look, it's always hard to figure out if.. very high valuations in the stock market.# If you're old enough, you will remember the## late '90s and going into 2000, and it does# have some things that feel in that nature.

That said, it's been a major determinant powering# business investment in the country.

Normally,## business investment is quite cyclical.# Even if you knew it were a bubble,## can a Central Bank pop a bubble?

Is# that appropriate?

I don't know.

I do## think very low interest rates in the# face of a bubble threaten to fuel it.

So it's something that I'm monitoring.# And the Chicago Fed, we're monitoring## quite a lot for financial stability# reasons if you could have a popping## bubble.

That has caused recessions in# the recent past in the United States.

GEOFF BENNETT: So what's all that mean for the# potential for another rate cut in December?

AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I don't like -- I never like,# as you know, tying our hands before we go into## the meeting, when we're still going to# get some information, and especially## at moments like this where we're trying to# figure out, is this a transitional moment?

I do want to hear from my colleagues because they# have some interesting world views different from## mine.

That said, I'm no -- looking at rates# over the medium run, I still think with stable## employment, if we can get back on a path to# 2 percent inflation and get past this uptick## that we have been seeing, I think rates can# go down a fair amount from where they are now.

But I'm a little uneasy front-loading too many# rate cuts and just assuming that the inflation## we have seen is going to be transitory.

That# makes me uneasy with too much front-loading.

GEOFF BENNETT: And even as the Fed has eased rates# over this past year, the pressure from President## Trump, as you well know, has not let up.

Just# yesterday, he went after Fed Chair Jerome Powell## again, encouraged the treasury secretary# to pressure Powell as well.

Take a listen.

DONALD TRUMP, President of the United States:# Mortgage rates are down, despite the Fed.

I mean,## Scott, you have got to work on this# guy.

He's got some real mental problems.

DONALD TRUMP: No, there's something# wrong with him.

It's just ridi -- I'd## be honest.

I'd love to fire# his ass.

He should be fired.

(LAUGHTER) DONALD TRUMP: The guy's grossly incompetent.

GEOFF BENNETT: What's this all mean for# the Fed's independence and, beyond that,## perceptions of the Fed's independence?

AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I have been in# the Fed coming on three years.## I was a research economist 30 years before that.

Economists are close to unanimous that a Central# Bank must be independent of political interference## when setting the interest rate.

If there# isn't independence of the Central Bank,## inflation comes roaring back, growth is# worse, unemployment is worse, because## somebody's got to be taking a broader view, and# that Fed independence is crucially important.

So it pains me if we're having public# discussions about whether the Fed## should be independent.

It should be independent.

Now, if the president has a view# about where we are in the economy,## he, like -- there are many people who have views# on the economy.

And I try to keep track of those## of those views and take seriously what the# arguments are.

At the end of the day, the FOMC,## my observation is, everybody# takes the job very seriously.

And you can look at the minutes.

You can look# at the transcripts for yourself.

It's not about## anything other than the economic outlook# and the data.

And that's what it should be.

So, outside opinions are important, and# everybody has one.

But the decisions have## got to be made on the data.

And that takes# place inside the room of the FOMC meeting.

GEOFF BENNETT: Austan Goolsbee,## president of the Federal Reserve Bank of# Chicag.. AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: Yes, wonderful to see you again.

AMNA NAWAZ:## "PBS News Hour" has obtained the# 28-point plan drafted by the Trump## administration to try to end the war in# Ukraine.

The document is at the center## of a pivotal ongoing diplomatic visit to# Kyiv by U.S.

Army Secretary Dan Driscoll.

It references Ukrainian security guarantees,# but also demands Ukraine give up territory,## cap the size of its military,# and blocks NATO from sending## troops to Ukraine.

U.S.

officials# emphasize, it is a working document.

Here's Nick Schifrin with more.

NICK SCHIFRIN: Today, in Ukraine, grief.# Residents of the Western city of Ternopil## honor children killed yesterday by a Russian# missile that cut this apartment building in half.## It's the kind of attack that has# pushed Ukraine to demand punishment.

But the Trump administration says it's pushing for# peace.

Secretary of the U.S.

Army Dan Driscoll,## the Army's civilian leader, is in Kyiv on# an unusual diplomatic mission and today## gave Ukrainian President Volodymyr# Zelenskyy a new American framework.

It would include security guarantees that# Ukraine has been demanding.

But the Trump## administration has made clear both sides will need# to make compromises.

And the full 28-point plan,## received and provided to "PBS News# Hour" by a senior European official,## not only includes security guarantees for# Ukraine, but also longstanding Russian demands.

Ukraine would have to limit the size of its# military.

NATO would not be allowed to send## any troops into Ukraine.

And Ukraine would# have to give up the portion of the Donetsk## region that it still controls that Russia has# failed to capture despite 11 years of war.## That territory would be internationally# recognized as Russian, but demilitarized.

That would give Russia control over the entire# Donbass.

The U.S.

would then recognize the## Donbass, occupied Crimea and the occupied# portions of Zaporizhzhia and Kherson as## de facto Russian.

In addition, NATO would# change its language to not admit Ukraine in## the future.

The U.S.

would lift sanctions on# Russia in stages and on a case-by-case basis.

All parties would receive -- quote# -- "full amnesty" for their actions.## And $100 billion of frozen Russian assets would be# earmarked for Ukrainian reconstruction.

Tonight,## Zelenskyy said he would negotiate off the# text presented by Driscoll constructively.

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, Ukrainian President# (through translator): We agreed that our## teams will work on these proposals to# ensure.. make any sharp statements, and we're# geared up for clear and honest work.

KAROLINE LEAVITT, White House Press# Secretary: Good afternoon, everybody.

NICK SCHIFRIN: At the White House,# spokesperson Karoline Leav.. the 28-point plan had been quietly# developed over the last month by## special envoy Steve Witkoff and# Secretary of State Marco Rubio.

KAROLINE LEAVITT: They have been engaging# with both sides, Russia and Ukraine equally,## to understand what these countries# would commit to in order to see a## lasting and durable peace.

The president# supports this plan.

It's a good plan## for both Russia and Ukraine.

And we believe# that it should be acceptable to both sides.

NICK SCHIFRIN: On a rare trip to the front line,# Russian President Vladimir Putin maintained## his version of what's acceptable, once again# describing Ukraine's government as illegitimate.

VLADIMIR PUTIN, Russian President (through# translator): A group of individuals,## this criminal group, an organized# criminal community that has usurped## power and under the pretext of the# need to continue the war with Russia,## is holding power in Ukraine for personal# enrichment.

But we all have our own goals.## The main one, of course, is achieving the# goals of the special military operation.

NICK SCHIFRIN: But for the European countries# that have collectively provided as many weapons## to Ukraine as the U.S., the U.S.

'# 28-point plan missed the main point E.U.

foreign policy Kaja Kallas.

KAJA KALLAS, Eur.. not on the victim.

Rewarding aggression# will only invite more of it.

The E.U.## has a very clear two-point plan, first,# weaken Russia, second, support Ukraine.

NICK SCHIFRIN: French Foreign# Minister Jean-Noel Barrot: JEAN-NOEL BARROT, French Europe and Foreign# Affairs Minister (through translator): Peace## cannot mean capi.. the Ukrainians, who have heroically# resisted Russia's uninhibited aggression## for more than three years, will never# accept any form of capitulation.

NICK SCHIFRIN: And, tonight, White House# spokeswoman Karoline Leavitt released a## statement that concludes -- quote -- "This plan# was crafted to reflect the realities of the## situation after five years of devastating# war to find the best win-win scenario,## where both parties gain more# than they must give" -- Amna.

AMNA NAWAZ: Nick, I know you have been talking to## officials and analysts to get their take# on this .. NICK SCHIFRIN: A senior European official# who hopes to help Ukraine resist Russia## believes that Europe can help edit these# points, so that they are more pro-Ukrainian.

And analysts who are along those same lines fear# that there's too many poison pills in this plan.## Number one, it limits the size of the Ukrainian# military, while not putting any limits on the## size of the Russian military.

And the language# on nonaggression is really nonenforceable,## as one person put it, meaning Ukraine# will not be self-reliant in the future.

Number two, no punishment of Russia for widespread# war crimes, despite language in there that we## reported about $100 billion of currently frozen# assets going for reconstruction, and changes## NATO's Constitution, very difficult.

Analysts who# want this to work tell me, look, there needs to be## a concrete framework for Ukrainian security# guarantees if this is ever going to work.

AMNA NAWAZ: Nick Schifrin, great# reporting, as always.

Thank you.

NICK SCHIFRIN: Thank you.

AMNA NAWAZ:## We start the day's other headlines at# Washington D.C.

's National Cathedral.

A funeral service for former Republican# Vice President Dick Cheney brought together## a bipartisan gathering of family and former# leaders.

The front pews were filled with former## Presidents George W. Bush and Joe Biden, plus# four former vice presidents from both parties.

In their eulogies, President Bush# and Cheney's daughter Liz honored## his sense of duty and commitment to his country.

GEORGE W. BUSH, Former President of the United# States: His time produced an old breed of public## servant, defined by their substance and character.# This was a vice president totally devoted to## protecting the United States and its interests.# There was never any agenda or angle beyond that.

FMR.

REP.

LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): But he# knew that bonds of party must always## yield to the single bond we share as# Americans.

For him, a choice between## defense of the Constitution and defense of# your political party was no choice at all.

AMNA NAWAZ: President Trump and Vice President# J.D.

Vance were not in attendance today, as they## were not invited.

Cheney rather famously# voted for Vice President Kamala Harris,## a Democrat, in the 2024 election, as he put it# -- quote -- "to put country above partisanship."

The Trump administration today announced one# of its most ambitious plans yet to drill for## oil off the nation's coasts.

The proposal# would open up nearly 1.3 billion acres of## coastal waters to oil and gas drilling.# That includes leases for new drilling off## the coasts of California and Florida for the# first time in decades, as well as a remote## region off Alaska called the High Arctic,# where such drilling has never taken place.

Critics have slammed the plan, including# California Governor Gavin Newsom,## who's called it -- quote -- "dead on arrival."

Federal investigators say there was evidence# of cracks in the engine mount of the UPS cargo## plane that crashed two weeks ago in Kentucky,# killing 14 people.

A series of photos released## today show the engine on the plane's left wing# starting to detach during takeoff.

Officials## say the plane only managed to get 30 feet off# the ground.

The NTSB said the plane was last## examined in 2021 and that it wasn't due for any# detailed inspections of the parts in question.

The Justice Department now has 30 days# to release files related to the late sex## offender Jeffrey Epstein after President# Trump signed the bill last night calling## for them to be made public.

This includes# an estimated 100,000 pages from multiple## DOJ investigations into Epstein and his# convicted co-conspirator, Ghislaine Maxwell.

But the bill does allow for redactions to# protect the victims' identities and ongoing## investigations, among others.

In the meantime,# former U.S.

Treasury Secretary Larry Summers says## he will take a leave of absence from teaching# at Harvard after recently released e-mails## show Summers kept a friendly relationship with# Epstein well after Epstein's 2008 conviction.

In Gaza, hospital officials say Israeli# strikes killed at least 33 people overnight,## including children.

The attacks are some# of the deadliest since the U.S.-brokered## cease-fire last month.

Israel says they# responded to soldiers coming under fire in## the southern city of Khan Yunis yesterday.# Hamas has denied firing at Israeli troops.

Two of Ezz Al-Din Keshko's children were killed## in the strike.

He spoke with# our Gaza producer, Shams Odeh.

EZZ AL-DIN KESHKO, Father of Children Killed in# Airstrike (through translator): They were killed## in a shelter that hosted p.. are children and women who have nothing to do# with this, honest people living amongst the## community.

The unjust criminal occupation# murdered them without empathy or mercy.

AMNA NAWAZ: Also today, a report from Human# Rights Watch says that Israel may have## committed war crimes, forcibly expelling 32,000# Palestinians from three West Bank refugee camps## earlier this year.

Israel has said the raids# were necessary to prevent militant activity.

The Associated Press, meanwhile, reports that# Israel's civil administration is planning to## seize parts of Sebastia, a major West Bank# historic site.

An anti-settlement group## claims this would be one of Israel's largest# seizures of archaeological important land yet.

Back in this country, Verizon is cutting more# than 13,000 jobs as part of an effort to,## in its words, reorient the company.

The# wireless carrier is looking to shrink## costs and restructure its operations# as it faces rising competition and a## shrinking pool of new customers.

Its stock# ended 1 percent lower after the news.

Elsewhere on Wall Street today, stocks# gave up early gains to close sharply## lower.

The Dow Jones industrial# average fell nearly 400 points.

The## Nasdaq dropped almost 500 points.

The S&P# 500 also ended the day firmly in the red.

Still to come on the "News Hour": President# Trump calls for Democrats to be arrested for## urging the military to refuse unlawful orders;## the debate over a spike in health care# premiums under the Affordable Care Act;## and the Trump administration considers suing# states who regulate artificial intelligence.

Half-a-dozen Democrats in Congress with# military and intelligence backgrounds are## urging current service members to ignore the# chain of command if they're given unlawful orders.

REP.

CHRIS DELUZIO (D-PA): Right now,## the threats to our Constitution# ar.. REP.

JASON CROW (D-CO): ...# but from right here at home.

SEN.

MARK KELLY (D-AZ): Our laws are# clear.

You can refus.. SEN.

ELISSA SLOTKIN (D-MI):# You can refuse illegal orders.

REP.

CHRIS DELUZIO: You# must refuse illegal orders.

SEN.

ELISSA SLOTKIN: No one has to# carry out orders that violate the law... REP.

CHRISSY HOULAHAN (D-PA):# ... or our Constitution.

AMNA NAWAZ: Now, they didn't specify# which orders they consider unlawful,## but President Trump has fired back,# writing on social media these members## of Congress should be -- quote -- "arrested# and put on trial," saying their actions are## seditious behavior from traitors that# is -- quote -- "punishable by death."

Congressman Jason Crow of Colorado# is a retired Army Ranger and one of## the Democrats you just heard from# in that video.

He joins me now.

Congressman, welcome to the# show.

Thanks for joining us.

REP.

JASON CROW: Hi, Amna.

AMNA NAWAZ: So, Karoline Leavitt,# the Wh.. was asked about all this in the briefing today.# I just want to play for you her response.

QUESTION: Just to be clear, does the# president want to execute members of Congress?

KAROLINE LEAVITT, White House Press Secretary:# No.

Let's be clear about what the president is## responding to.

You have sitting members of# the United States Congress who conspired## together to orchestrate a video message# to members of the United States military,## to active-duty service members, to members# of the national security apparatus,## encouraging them to defy the# president's lawful orders.

AMNA NAWAZ: Congressman, I just want to get## your response to the latest# from the White House.. REP.

JASON CROW: Well, first off,# Karoline Leavitt is just lying.

We specifically said to unlawful orders --# that they don't have to obey unlawful orders,## which actually is what the Constitution# says, what the Uniform Code of Military## Justice says and what we were trained# on when we were in uniform as well.

This administration wants people to think# that simply reminding people of their oath## and what the law requires is somehow criminal and# should result in treason and hanging, because,## secondly, that is what the president said# this morning.

He called for a treason trial.## He called for our arrest.

And he called# specifically for our execution by hanging.

AMNA NAWAZ: So, to be specific here, then,# Congressman, which unlawful orders are you asking## military members to refuse?

What did you see# that prompted you and others to make this video?

REP.

JASON CROW: The point of this video# was not to point to specific orders.

It's## to prepare our service members, our young# men and women, who are going to be put in## very difficult positions in the years ahead# to understand their oath and their obligation.

And there's plenty of reason to be concerned.# Donald Trump actually asked whether he could## shoot protesters in the leg during# the protests at Lafayette Square.## Donald Trump has said he's going to go to war# with Chicago and send troops into our cities,## several of which have already been# declared illegal by federal courts.

So there's plenty of reason to be# concerned.

And we want to start a## public conversation about what the obligation# of our troops really is, in the very same way,## I will say, that I did before I deployed# my paratrooper platoon to Iraq in 2003,## because once you get to the point where# they are faced with an instant decision,## it's too late if you haven't already# had that conversation with them.

AMNA NAWAZ: Well, Congressman, for military# members who are trying to navigate this now,## I want to put to you what I heard from# the director of The Orders Project,## which is a nonprofit that offers legal advice to## military service members who are unclear# about their orders or worried about them.

And they have been seeing an uptake in calls# recently.

But this person also said that any## service member who disobeys an order on the# basis that it's unlawful does run the risk## that a military judge will disagree.

And# then they have to face the consequences.

Are you saying to military members# they should take on that risk?

REP.

JASON CROW: Well, listen, every# military member takes on that risk.## Service is hard.

Being in# the military is very hard.

So what we want to do is send a# message that members of Congress,## their fellow veterans, we stand by them, we see# them, and we are reminding them of their oath.

AMNA NAWAZ: Congressman, you# have served honorably.

We thank## you for your service.

So did most in that video.

But so did retired Four-Star General Barry# McCaffrey.

And he had this to say in response## to your video.

He said: "This action by# Democrats is unwarranted and dangerous.## Focus on your own responsibilities in Congress# to oppose military actions you believe are wrong## or illegal.

Support the judicial system to push# back.

Don't call on the military to stop Trump."

What do you say to that?

REP.

JASON CROW: Well, we're# not calling on the military## to stop Trump.

We're calling on# the military to fulfill oaths.

And, unfortunately, I think General McCaffrey# doesn't understand the moment that we're in,## the challenges that this administration# is presenting to the troops.

And I think## he doesn't understand the time and the# challenges that leaders face right now.

AMNA NAWAZ: Do you not trust# that the courts will continue## to push back or slow or stop Trump# policies as they have been doing?

REP.

JASON CROW: They may.

They may# not.

And even when courts issue orders,## over a third of the time, this administration# disregards lawful orders of the courts,## right?

They simply disregard# court orders time and time again.

So my job as a member of Congress is to do# everything possible to uphold the Constitution and## to defend this country.

I don't rely on anybody# to help me fulfill my duties, right?

This is a## project the entire country needs to undertake.# Courts have an obligation.

Citizens have an## obligation.

The military has an obligation.

Law# enforcement has an obligation.

And I have mine.

AMNA NAWAZ: We saw Senate Minority Leader# Chuck Schumer say today he's asked for## special protections for Senators Slotkin and# Kelly, who appeared with you in that video,## after the president's post about# seditions.

Are you worried about your## own safety?

Have you seen any increase# in threats since the president's post?

REP.

JASON CROW: Yes, we have received# threats.

And we take those very seriously.

I mean, this is actually making the point that# the president continues to incite violence## in vitriolic rhetoric and partisanship over# and over again.

And it's very serious stuff,## right?

People sometimes act on what# Donald Trump and others say, right?

They certainly did on January 6.

So I understand# the threats that we face right now.

I take those## seriously.

But I will not be intimidated.# But what Donald Trump wants is, he wants to## use fear and intimidation to silence dissent,# to silence opposition, and to silence speech.

And I am not allowed -- I'm not# going to allow that to happen,## because the moment we allow that to happen is# the moment we lose our democracy.

And I will## not allow it to happen.

Fear is contagious,# but so is courage.

And I intend to lead.

AMNA NAWAZ: Congressman Jason Crow of Colorado,## thank you for making the time to# speak with us.

We appreciate it.

REP.

JASON CROW: Thank you.

GEOFF BENNETT:## We are just weeks away from some# 20 million Americans seeing a## major spike in their health care# premiums.

That's unless Congress## works to extend the subsidies# under the Affordable Care Act.

Lawmakers expanded and boosted those# tax credits during the pandemic,## making coverage more affordable# for millions of families.## But if the subsidies expire at the end# of the year, premiums would double for## the average enrollee and some people could see# their monthly costs rise by more than $1,000.

William Brangham joins us# now with more -- William.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Geoff, that's right.

This battle over extending subs.. Democrats were not successful in securing any# deal.

And now both parties remain deadlocked## over this issue.

The Congressional Budget Office# estimates that more than two million will not be## able to pay these higher premiums or other# costs, and thus will drop their insurance.

Here's what we heard from some# people who are afraid of just that.

CRYSTAL AKERS, Kentucky: My name is Crystal# Akers, and I live in Bowling Green, Kentucky.

I got a notice October 1 that my premium, as# of November 1, would be going up over $500.

RESHONDA YOUNG, Iowa: My name is ReShonda# Young, and I live in Waterloo, Iowa.

My premiums with the premium# tax credit are $94 per month.## And without that credit, they go to $592 a month.

TENIKA MASON, Tennessee: My name is Tenika# Mason, and I live in Dayton, Tennessee.

My husband logged on to the marketplace# the first day it was available and saw## that our premiums are going to increase by# $1,100.

And that is actually devastating to## us.

The increase is about 225 percent# from what we were paying previously.

MELISSA RUFF, Florida: I am Melissa# Ruff.

I'm in Jacksonville, Florida.

If nothing happens with the subsidies being# extended by December 31, my premiums will go from## $238 a month to $1,308 a month for my insurance,# which is not even top-of-the-line insurance.

CRYSTAL AKERS: The subsidies through the# marketplace since the ACA went into effect have## allowed me to have insurance as a single parent.# Without that, it's unmanageable for my budget.

RESHONDA YOUNG: I had gotten a breast# cancer diagnosis a little over a year## ago.

And so having a good, reliable plan was# incredibly helpful, because, even with a plan,## you have got to pay your deductibles.

I still# had to pay thousands of dollars out of pocket,## but at least my monthly premiums were affordable.

TENIKA MASON: Our daughter# is a brain cancer survivor,## and we have to go with the insurer that covers# the specialists that she needs.

My husband and## myself also have health issues that require# multiple visits with specialists throughout## the year.

So not having insurance is not an# option for us.

It would ruin us financially.

MELISSA RUFF: I found out in# 2022 that I had heart disease.## So it allowed me to have a cardiac cath# at very minimal cost, and stress-testing## and echocardiograms and mammograms and GYN and# everything else and all of my medications.

So,## now, without it, without any health# insurance, that's what I'm facing.

CRYSTAL AKERS: I think the ACA was a step in the# right direction.

My biggest problem with it is how## unstable it's gotten.

So it becomes impossible,# I think, for the middle class to get ahead.

MELISSA RUFF: I would not have been# able to get health care back prior## to the ACA because of preexisting conditions.

So## now the preexisting condition thing with# Obamacare, is that going to be cut too?

RESHONDA YOUNG: The frustrating thing for me# is that you have members of Congress who have## an incredible health insurance plan.# They don't understand what it's like## to have to decide between health insurance# and decreasing my food budget for the month.

CRYSTAL AKERS: I'm still in the process# of figuring out what I'm going to do next.## As far as I'm concerned right# now, I don't have insurance.## I turned off my payment for November, and# I have just got to figure out my options.

MELISSA RUFF: I have chosen# to go without insurance in## 2026.

I'm not going to be able to afford it.

RESHONDA YOUNG: It was such a surprise# for me to get a cancer diagnosis,## and so just knowing that life happens,# and not having it is also not an option.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: So extending these# subsidies would cost an estimated## $350 billion over the next decade.

The president# and a number of Republicans have suggested## they would rather give that money to people# directly, rather than to insurance companies.

So, for a deeper dive on what we do now,# we get two different views.

Jonathan Cohn## is senior writer at The Bulwark# and author of "The Ten Year War:## Obamacare and the Unfinished Crusade for# Universal Coverage."

And Brian Blase is## president of Paragon Health Institute.

He served# on the National Economic Council during the first## Trump administration.

He testified in front of# Congress yesterday on rising health care costs.

Gentlemen, welcome to you both.

Jonathan Cohn, to you first.

We# just heard from several of people## who are alarmed at the prospect of what# might happen to their insurance if these## subsidies are not extended.

Given# the deadline that we are up against,## what do you think is the best course# of action?

What should we be doing now?

JONATHAN COHN, The Bulwark: Well, if you're# just talking short term, I think there's## a pretty easy answer to that.

Extend the# subsidies for one year or for two years.

There's a broader conversation to be had# about how to fix the health care system,## how to either improve or change the# Affordable Care Act.

This is a debate## we have been having for 10 years.

Democrats# put forward legislation at the beginning of## this year to talk about that.

People like# us have been talking about this for months.

The time to sort of do a bigger# conversation was six months ago,## because it takes time to work these things out.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Brian Blase, you testified# before Congress yesterday, arguing that the## ACA and somehow the way these subsidies are# structured is a principal driver of rising costs.

The president, as I mentioned, has suggested# funneling that money directly to individuals## instead.

What do you make of that idea?# What do you think we ought to be doing now?

BRIAN BLASE, President, Paragon Health# Institute: Yes, and thanks for having me on.

So there was bipartisan agreement at the# hearing yesterday that the Af.. Act has failed to make health insurance# affordable.

It's led to coverage with## significantly higher premiums,# deductibles, and narrow networks.

And one of the areas of confusion here# is that the subsidies remain in place.## For 94 percent of the enrollees, they will# maintain significant taxpayer assistance,## assistance for coverage.

That is not# going away.

What is at issue is a COVID## era policy that increased these subsidies that# go directly to health insurance companies.

And there are key structural problems# with the ACA.

And these subsidies that## go directly to health insurance companies go# to many enrollees that don't use health care## services at all.

So 35 percent of all enrollees# in 2024 didn't use their plan a single time.

Part of the problem is a surge of fraud that has# entered the program with these enhanced subsidies.## And so what is happening is, taxpayers are sending# a lot of money to insurers on behalf of people## that don't get any medical care.

And I think# we need to address the core structural problems## at the roots of the ACA that have led to a# deterioration in the quality of health insurance.

And continuing these inefficient# subsidies will mean that we don't## improve the quality of coverage in that program.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Jonathan Cohn,# how do you respond to that,## that something -- that the way these subsidies# are structured, they're going to peop.. may not necessarily seem to need them# immediately, they're incredibly costly,## and that perpetuating them only# kicks the can down the road.

JONATHAN COHN: OK.So, well, there's a lot to# unpack there.

Let's focus on this one question of## the people who are getting subsidies and not using# them for claims, because this has come up a lot.

It is true, there's data from the government that# 30 percent or what -- I think it's actually even## a little higher now of enrollees at the ACA don't# file a claim during the year.

And this is supposed## to be evidence that you have people who are# sort of misenrolled, fraudulently enrolled.

Something to remember, I mean, the fact that you# don't use insurance in a year doesn't mean it's## wasted.

Especially younger, healthier people# are going to go and have periods when they're## not -- when I was 27, I don't think I went to# the doctor for like three years at one point.

Then the fraud issue is real.

There# has been an uptick in fraud.

But if## you look at where the fraud is -- and,# actually, there's some really good## research on this from Brian's research# organization, Paragon.

What they note,## it's really concentrated in the states where# they use the federal Web site healthcare.gov.

And there were a number of changes made# to healthcare.gov that made it easier## for brokers to enroll people directly.

And# everything we -- you look at what's going on,## a lot of this is brokers behaving badly.

That's# terrible.

We should do something about that.

But you can do something about that without taking## away financial assistance from people.# And the proof is that the states that## didn't make those broker changes didn't# see nearly the kind of broker fraud.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Brian, back to this issue# of the deadline that we have approaching here,## there is, both from a political# perspective -- with midterms looming,## Republicans don't want to be blamed# for this sudden spike in premiums.

Do you think that what the president and# some Republicans have floated as far as,## rather than extending the subsidies,# but funneling the money to individuals,## do you think that is workable?

And do you think# it is workable in the time frame allotted?

BRIAN BLASE: So let me clarify again# that the subsidies remain in place,## and 94 percent of the enrollees# will receive subsidies still.## It means the government is paying a# substantial share of their premium.

So, for the typical enrollee next year,# the federal government is going to pay## more than 80 percent of the subsidy.# I think that there are proposals out## there that can redirect the portion of the# subsidies from the insurer to the patient.

There's actually a policy that was put in the# House-passed version of the reconciliation## bill.

It would have lowered premiums by 12# percent.

And you could -- what you could do is,## you could allow individuals to take a portion# of that subsidy that currently goes to insurers## to reduce planned deductibles and# out-of-pocket limits, and you can## give it to enrollees as an HSA contribution,# so that the enrollee controls the spending.

And, fundamentally, the way that we reform# our health care system and make it more## affordable is to give more power to the# patient and stop sending so much federal## government directly to health insurance# companies.

That is not the way to make a## system more efficient.

It's the way# to keep premiums and prices rising,## because it gives insurers very bad incentives,# where their incentives are just to continue to## inflate premiums and the prices that# they pay for health care services.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Jonathan, last question to you.

What about that idea?

And will it# get done in time, do you think,## by the end of this year?

And what might# this do to the marketplace itself?

JONATHAN COHN: Yes, so I mean,# I think trying to put in place## something like this the next six weeks -- I# mean, we're three weeks into open enrollment,## the next plan year begins in less# than two months -- is ridiculous.

Trying to set something up like this on short# notice is not going to work.

There are lots## of reasons to be skeptical.

I mean, there# are versions of accounts that would work## perfectly fine.

And I think we're just getting# the legislative details now.

And something would## work out quite well for some people, but there's# lots of reason to think it's not a magic bullet.

People -- we have got data on this.

People# are terrible at shopping for health care,## and lots of reasons to fear that this will# shift the burden of health care spending## on to people with big medical expenses.

And# I think that gets to the basic divide here.

Is your top priority to spend less money,# believing maybe that will make the health## care system more efficient and less government# is better?

That's a respectful point of view.## Or is your top priority to make sure people get# as much help as possible because health care is## so expensive, even if that means spending more# money, even if that means bigger government?

And I think that's the choice we face here.

BRIAN BLASE: Honestly, my top# priority is a more affordable,## accountable health system that# improves Americans' health over time.

And I think Obamacare has fundamental# problems in it.

And we can't just keep## doing more of the same and sending more# money to health insurance companies.## That's just going to lead to worse# health care and worse health outcomes.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: All right,# Brian Blase, Jonathan Cohn,## very important debate we are having here.# Thank you so much, both of you, for being here.

JONATHAN COHN: Thank you.

GEOFF BENNETT: The Trump White House is# reportedly drafting an executive order## that would override state regulations on# artificial intelligence.

The order would## establish a task force inside# the Justice Department to sue## and potentially withhold federal funding# from states that pass their own A.I.

laws.

In a social media post earlier this week, the# president wrote -- quote -- "We must have one## federal standard, instead of a patchwork of# 50 state regulatory regimes.

If we don't,## then China will easily catch us in the A.I.

race."

Joining us now to break it all down# is veteran tech journalist Jacob Ward,## founder of The Rip Current.

Jake, it's always good to see you.

JACOB WARD, Founder, The Rip# Current: Geoff, thanks so## much for having me.. GEOFF BENNETT: Sure.

So, as first reported by The Washington Post, this draft executive order specifically targets# new A.I.

laws in Colorado and California.## What do these laws actually do?

What argument# do the states make that they are even necessary?

JACOB WARD: Well, I think the first argument here,## Geoff, is that these are absolutely the# only laws we hav.. regulations around A.I.

at the moment.# And so the states have stepped in, right?

There's that famous saying that the# states are the laboratory of law,## and that is absolutely what's been happening# here.

So, in a place like, let's say, Colorado,## nearly six million people there are protected# against discrimination that might come through## A.I.

when it comes to employment or housing or job# applications, health insurance, all of that stuff.

In California, we have a very robust law here# that's just been signed by the governor that## essentially says that we get to look inside# the security and safety protocols of these## companies.

And big protections are# extended to whistle-blowers.

These## are the kinds of things that you would# imagine that would be a federal law.

But in the absence of that, the states have# had to get involved here.

And for some reason,## suddenly, now we're in a position where the# federal government, without really proposing## any kind of replacement for these laws, is# saying that these laws can't stand, Geoff.

GEOFF BENNETT: Well, let's talk more about# the why, because we have seen a number of top## tech executives from Nvidia, from Google and# Apple have regular access to the White House.

Based on your reporting, is this# reflective of their wishes?

I mean,## how much influence do these companies# have in shaping A.I.

policy?

JACOB WARD: Well, I think there's no doubt here# that these companies forever have wanted there## to be a federal standard, so that they don't# have to deal with the patchwork of state laws.

We also can draw some sort of connective tissue# here between these being the companies that --## whose heads have attended the inauguration, have# been at a state dinner with Mohammed bin Salman## recently, and who have contributed money to# the renovation of the White House ballroom.

Certainly, what no one is responding# to here is public sentiment.

Not only## did the last effort to put this kind# of moratorium into a bill in front## of Congress go down in flames 99-1,# but Americans don't feel this way.

A Gallup poll that came out in September found# that 80 percent of U.S.

adults believe the## government should maintain rules for A.I.# safety and data security, even if it means## developing A.I.

capabilities more slowly, which# flies right in the face of what President Trump## is arguing here in this leaked memo obtained by# all of these outlets that somehow we will fall## behind China and it's as a result worth doing# away with the laws that we have here, Geoff.

GEOFF BENNETT: What President Trump is arguing# and what Elon Musk is predicting -- Elon Musk## said something, as you well know this# week, that raised a lot of eyebrows.

He predicted that, with A.I.

advances, work will# eventually become optional.

For a lot of people,## that's not exciting.

That's terrifying that# the average American could be replaced by## any number of robots and the corporations# are all just focused on the productivity.

JACOB WARD: Yes, the rhetoric that# you hear from the leaders of these## companies really is quite ideological.# They really seem to have this kind of## faith-based idea that on the far side# of a huge amount of disruption is going## to come this utopia in which we are all# suddenly doing watercolors in our gardens.

What I think we have seen over the course of# American history is that we don't tend to like## to pay people to make watercolors in their# gardens.

We tend to like to pay people for## work.

And one way to look at what Musk is saying# here is the idea that we won't have to work.

But the practical effect, as we have# heard from the heads of these companies,## could truly be widespread displacement in# jobs.

Dario Amodei, the head of Anthropic,## has said in the same sentence that we might# cure cancer, we might balance the budget,## but we also might have 20 percent unemployment.

That's the kind of thing that could be# happening here.

And so if you believe,## as these heads of the companies seem to,# that there's a utopia on the far side of## this that's going to make it all worth# it, then OK.

But I think economists and## historians would tell you that this is# going in a different direction, Geoff.

GEOFF BENNETT: Twenty percent# unemployment possibly.

All right, Jacob Ward, always great# to see you with The Rip Current.

JACOB WARD: Appreciate it.

Thanks.

AMNA NAWAZ: As President Trump's administration# has loosened regulations on cryptocurrency and## pledged to make the U.S.

the crypto capital of# the world, his family's ties to the industry## are raising ethical concerns and blurring# the lines between business and government.

Our White House correspondent,# Liz Landers, takes a closer look.

LIZ LANDERS: For more than a year, President# Trump's two oldest sons, Eric and Don Jr.,## have been on something of a globe-trotting road# show preaching the virtues of cryptocurrency... ERIC TRUMP, Executive Vice President,# Trump Organization: I think it's going## to change your modern fi.. (CHEERING) LIZ LANDERS: ..... Trump family called World Liberty Financial.

DONALD TRUMP JR., Executive Vice President,# Trump Organization: Yes, we call it the World## Liberty because of the lib.. but also because of the world aspect of# it, right?

This isn't just about America.

LIZ LANDERS: Launched in September 2024,## World Liberty Financial bills itself as a# -- quote -- "decentralized finance company."

DONALD TRUMP, President of the United# States: Big news, the World Liberty## Financial token sale is now live.

Crypto is# the future.

Let's embrace this incredible## technology and lead the world in digital# economy.

Go to worldlibertyfinancial.com.

LIZ LANDERS: Its Web site features President# Trump labeled as a co-founder emeritus and## lists his three sons, Eric, Don Jr.

and# Barron Trump, as co-founders.

Also listed,## co-founder emeritus Steve Witkoff, now# President Trump's diplomatic special envoy,## and Witkoff's two sons Zach# and Alex, both co-founders.

A footnote on the Web site notes# that both President Trump and## Steve Witkoff were both -- quote# -- "removed upon taking office."

Last month, President Trump pardoned Changpeng# Zhao, the billionaire founder of Binance,## the world's largest crypto exchange.

In 2023, the# company admitted to evading U.S.

sanction laws,## and Zhao, known as C.Z., pleaded guilty# to violating anti-money laundering laws.

President Trump told 60 Minutes after# issuing the pardon that he doesn't know Zhao.

DONALD TRUMP: I don't know who# he is.

I know he got a four-month## sentence or something like that, and# I heard it was a Biden witch-hunt.

LIZ LANDERS: White House Press# Secretary Karoline Leavitt: KAROLINE LEAVITT, White House Press Secretary:# He means he does not have a personal relationship## with this individual.

And when it comes to# pardons, the White House takes them with the## utmost seriousness.

There's a whole team of# qualified lawyers who look at every single## pardon request that ultimately make their# way up to the president of the United States.

MAN: We are excited to announce today... LIZ LANDERS: Earlier this year, when a# state-owned investment firm in the United## Arab Emirates sought to invest in Binance,# Zhao's company gave a high-profile boost## to World Liberty Financial's credibility,# reportedly pushing for the $2 billion deal## to be paid using World Liberty Financial's new# stablecoin, USD1, a type of cryptocurrency that## maintains a constant price, and, in the# case of USD1, is tied to the U.S.

dollar.

Binance CEO Richard Teng denied# reports his company pushed to use USD1.

RICHARD TENG, CEO, Binance: We# didn't partake in that position.## USD1 was listed on other exchanges# before it was listed on Binance,## right?

So a lot of these reports just# miscategorized.

They are totally false.

LIZ LANDERS: It was one of# World Liberty Financial's## first major deals and a potential# windfall for the Trump family.

ZEKE FAUX, Bloomberg: You can kind of# think of this like Binance putting a## $2 billion deposit at the bank of the# Trumps.

And so that $2 billion has been## parked there since as far as we know.

And# the World Liberty is earning interest on it.

LIZ LANDERS: Zeke Faux is an investigative# reporter for Bloomberg and author of "Number## Go Up: Inside Crypto's Wild# Rise and Staggering Fall."

Do we know how much the Trump family has made# off of World Liberty Financial at this point?

ZEKE FAUX: On World Liberty, I'd estimate# $400 million, $500 million.

And that's## just one of their many crypto businesses.# The Trumps have likely made more than a## billion dollars off crypto while -- just in# the year that Donald Trump's been in office.

LIZ LANDERS: That total dwarfs what# the Trump family earned from its other## businesses in the first half of this year,# $33 million from golf clubs and resorts,## and $23 million from licensing the Trump name,# according to a recent investigation by Reuters.

DONALD TRUMP: My sons are into it.

I'm glad# they are because it's probably a great industry,## crypto.

I think it's good.

They're running# a business.

They're not in government.

DONALD TRUMP JR.

: And so this whole# notion of democratizing finance,## that's not going to be done in the traditional# banking way.

That's going to be done in crypto.

LIZ LANDERS: In early August, a Nasdaq# company called ALT5 Sigma purchased## $750 million worth of another World Liberty# product, digital tokens called WLFI.

ERIC TRUMP: What we are going to do with this## company is absolutely amazing,# and I could not .. LIZ LANDERS: The Trump family company# receives up to 75 percent of revenue## from sales of the World Liberty# Financial token after expenses.

DAVID YAFFE-BELLANY, The New York# Times: This coin has created a new## way for people to channel money to the president.

LIZ LANDERS: David Yaffe-Bellany covers the# crypto industry for The New York Times.

He## says the Trump crypto ventures offer a new# way to get around campaign finance laws.

DAVID YAFFE-BELLANY: With crypto, none# of those rules exist.

And so people who## are based in foreign countries and are# banned from donating to the political## process in the U.S.

have this new route# for directing money toward the president.

LIZ LANDERS: When asked about the potential for# foreign governments to invest in the company to## curry favor with the president, a spokesman# said -- quote -- "World Liberty Financial is## a private financial technology company# and not in any way a political entity."

Separate from World Liberty, another crypto# vehicle, Trump meme coins.

There's one called## Trump and another one named after Melania.# The Trump family and its partners have made## more than $300 million in fees from sales# of the coins, according to several analyses.

But for investors, it's a different story.

The# Trump coin's value has fallen about 90 percent## from its all-time high shortly after debuting in# January.

The Melania coin has dropped 99 percent.

ZEKE FAUX: Creating a meme coin really# doesn't take much.

You're selling like## a made-up token that doesn't do anything for# real money.

So it's pretty much pure profit.

LIZ LANDERS: In May, President Trump held# a crypto dinner at his Virginia country## club with some of the largest investors in his# Trump meme coin, among the guests, Justin Sun,## a Chinese-born crypto billionaire who had been# facing SEC charges for securities fraud.

Sun## has also invested more than $75 million in# the Trump-backed World Liberty Financial.

A## few weeks after the purchases, the# SEC paused the case against him.

Is this a way for foreign investors or foreign## companies or foreign individuals to try# to gain influence with the president?

DAVID YAFFE-BELLANY: It's a complicated# question.

There's absolutely no doubt## that some of the people who have bought this coin,## used the coin want to have influence with the# president and see this as a means of getting it.

My colleagues and I have spoken to some of them,## and they have been very up front# about what their motivations are.

LIZ LANDERS: In a statement, White House# Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt said in## part -- quote -- "The media's continued# attempts to fabricate conflicts of## interest are irresponsible and reinforce the# public's distrust in what they read.

Neither## the president nor his family have ever engaged# or will ever engage in conflicts of interest.## The administration is fulfilling the president's# promise to make the United States the crypto## capital of the world by driving innovation# and economic opportunity for all Americans."

In just the last year, the president's# estimate net worth jumped $3 billion,## according to Forbes, the primary# source of that wealth, cryptocurrency.

For the "PBS News Hour," I'm Liz Landers.

GEOFF BENNETT: Well, finally tonight,## a special birthday wish to a very# special some.. AMNA NAWAZ: Judy, from all of us# here to you, happy, happy birthday.

GEOFF BENNETT: And that is the "News# Hour" for tonight.

I'm Geoff Bennett.

AMNA NAWAZ: And I'm Amna Nawaz.

On behalf of the entire "News Hour"# team, ..